Politically High-Tech
A podcast with facts and opinions on different topics like politics, policy, technology especially AI, spirituality and development! For this podcast, development simply means tip, product and/or etc. can benefit humanity. This show aims to show political viewpoints and sometimes praises/criticizes them. He is a wildcard sometimes. For Technology episodes, this show focuses on products (mostly AI) with pros, cons and sometimes give a hint of future update. For Development episodes, the podcast focuses on tips to improve as a human spiritually, socially, emotionally and more. All political, AI lovers and haters, and all religions are welcome! This is an adult show. Minors should not be listening to this podcast! This podcast proudly discriminates bad characters and nothing else.
Politically High-Tech
273- Overcoming Addiction: A Judge's Powerful Recovery Journey with Mary Beth
Mary Beth O'Connor shares her transformative journey from addiction and trauma to becoming a federal judge, illustrating how personalized recovery approaches can lead to extraordinary life changes. Her story challenges common misconceptions about addiction treatment while offering practical insights for both those struggling with addiction and their supporters.
• Growing up in a violent household that led to early substance use at age 12
• Progression to methamphetamine addiction by age 16 while dealing with trauma
• Development of an individualized recovery plan rather than relying solely on 12-step programs
• Addressing co-occurring mental health conditions like PTSD alongside addiction
• The importance of patience and persistence over perfection in recovery
• How 75% of people with substance use disorders eventually recover, though rarely on the first try
• Community Reinforcement and Family Training (CRAFT) as an effective support approach for families
• Incremental progress that led from staying employed to becoming a federal judge
• The necessity of individualized treatment plans versus one-size-fits-all approaches
• Resources including Life Ring Secular Recovery and She Recovers Foundation
Find Mary Beth's memoir "From Junkie to Judge: One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction" and connect with her at junkietojudge.com or on social media.
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Direct link to her book
Her foundation
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welcome everyone to politically high tech with your host, elias. I am actually happy here and I know some of you gonna think this is like dei identity politics. But if you just get rid of your blinders you don't have a great, overwhelming white male guess. I'm not against them, it's just statistically true. I did my own statistics. I definitely need more voices, my own extra white women, definitely more minorities, and I'm trying to reach out to them because, look, I want to bring different points of view. I don't want to be an extension of Fox News or even CNN. I don't want to do that. I don't like that. I don't like the two camps. I'm a centrist and dependent at the end of the day. But before I derail this, I can do that very easily. I have a wonderful guest here and she has a great journey. I think has amazing value, Whether you're a Christian or you're a secular atheist it don't matter to me.
Speaker 1:You already know I'm a spiritualist, I believe in the higher power, and if other people don't to me, that's okay. And if you really believe in God and God's in control, you let Him take care of that. You stop pretending to be God. This is where things get messy. And look, I love you church people, but I got to call you out on some things. If you try to act like God, the battle's lost, and that's the biggest sin, even more than murder and all of that. Yeah, try to replace something. But enough lecture to you Christian churchy folks.
Speaker 1:So I have a guest here and she's going to share her journey. Her name is Mary Beth O'Connor and I'm going to be calling her Mary Beth. She requests that, and not just that, it's actually easier for me too. It gives me something to separate many people Because, look, if I have a lot of Marias, a lot of Marys, which one is who? Right, maybe I have to start calling them Mary Martinez, Brie Smith, mary mary I don't know papadopoulos, whatever. It's a very common name, let's be honest. But let me be quiet. Let me just have this guest introduce herself, and I don't introduce the guests. I like them to do that because they can represent themselves better than I can, even if I research them and study them meticulously. So take it away.
Speaker 2:What do you?
Speaker 1:want the listeners and viewers to know about you, Mary Beth.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I tried to sort of capture the arc of the primary story in the title to my memoir, which is From Junkie to Judge One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction. Because I grew up in a really violent household. My mother was violent, although things got much worse when she married my stepfather when I was nine and he was very violent with her. I think we underappreciate just witnessing parent on parent violence and the impact of that. But he was also physically violent with me, sexually violent.
Speaker 2:It was just a very high stress household where what I did and what happened to me were not very closely connected and I never knew what was going to happen. It could be quiet for a while and then you could do one little minor thing that had not been a problem earlier and suddenly it was a major issue. So a lot of strain. And so for me I found my first drug when I was 12. And it was Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill Wine alcohol of course, which is a common starter drug, and it really captured my attention right away because what I noticed was how much better it made me feel. Right. I felt like I could sort of take a deeper breath, like my muscles were more relaxed. I really felt like I was laughing and giggling with my girlfriend in sort of like a more openly joyful way and that really captured my attention. Like this is a really positive experience. I need more of this. And I say those two things because abuse to drug use and pursuing drugs at a higher rate those are connected and we can talk about that.
Speaker 2:But for me, you know, I was using alcohol right away, looking for opportunities. I'd even steal beer from my dangerous stepfather because that's how much I wanted to help. But I also added in weed. There were pills around. I did a lot of acid my sophomore year of high school and when I was 16, I found what became my drug of choice, which was methamphetamine, and I was shooting meth at 17 years old. I was in full bore addiction when I graduated high school, so it was a very quick and very vicious start. I did leave Central Jersey to come to California to go to college and I did better for a couple of years. But I had a really life-threatening kidnapping, three men, six-hour rape in college. I moved in with a violent boyfriend and it was sort of like my little grip that I had. I lost and I started using meth again on a regular basis in January of my senior year of college and I didn't get sober till 32. So it was a really long haul for me.
Speaker 2:And then, just to go quick, I went into rehab. I'm not really a 12-step person, which is Alcoholics Anonymous and all the Anonymouses Pulled a couple ideas and I support it when it's the right fit. But for me I built more of what we today would call an individualized recovery plan, pulling ideas from multiple places. But I also had to do a lot of therapy. It turned out I didn't know it but I had PTSD and that turned into very severe anxiety. So a lot of work had to be done.
Speaker 2:Other than just my sobriety, which is also common. A lot of people over half of the people when they get sober, have another mental health condition they also need to work on. So my recovery was sort of multi-pronged in that way and then gradually, you know, over time, incrementally better, better, better, and we can talk about all those different parts of life, whatever's of interest. And eventually I was a federal judge, which is why I call my story from junkie to judge. I went to law school at six years sober and I took early retirement and now I'm sort of an advocate, speaker, writer in the recovery space. So that's the short overview.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, let's just. I hope you're really paying attention to that because despite of so much obstacles, let's be honest, it started off rough. If you want to use video game terminology for some of my younger nerdy fans out there, she started on hard mode right away. I mean, you know I'm trying not to make light of it, but you know, if you want to be for geek to geek, you know she started, you know she said she.
Speaker 1:I would say my start of life was not even that rough. I mean, I was exposed to, I mean, beer and all that, because I accidentally drank it like a, like an idiot. I should have paid attention to the of the thing because my father at the time was trying to avoid the cops, he put it in the Arizona teapot. I was so thirsty I drank that thing, I got drunk.
Speaker 1:That's far more sillier and light and this is why you have to pay attention to people's stories and treat them as individually unique, and I think for solutions for drugs, I think we need to have that approach as opposed to okay, just take this patch, just do that, it'll go away, and that's probably like step one at best, and at worst it's just eh, you just want to shoo that person away. Right, just have a cheap solution, just shoo that person away. I definitely want to dig into some of the drug stuff because you know a lot of people just stay in that for the rest of their lives and die. I mean, you defy the odds, because a lot of people just stay addicted to drugs for life and that's it. That's where it ends for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:I will say to that though I know we hear all this bad data like only 5% of people who go to rehab succeed, or 15% or whatever it might be, but that's actually not true in the long run. But that's actually not true in the long run. That's really looking at for each effort. So in their lifetime, 75% of the people who qualify under this test the test in the diagnostic manual that therapists and psychiatrists use because drug addiction the technical name is substance use disorder. That's a mental health disorder. It's in the book of mental health disorders. But 75% of the people who at one point qualify as having a substance use disorder later on will no longer qualify. In other words, they'll recover to the point that they don't pass the test for having an addiction anymore. So there's a lot more success than people realize. It's just that it's usually not on the first effort, and for me it wasn't either. I mean, I went into an inpatient rehab, which not everybody needs. We could talk about that if you like, but I did. I had a very severe, very long-term addiction but I used three times in my first five months and then I started the clock on what today is 31 years of sobriety and so perfect abstinence from day one?
Speaker 2:It happens, but it is not the norm, and there's a couple of reasons for that. One is when you stop the drugs, first of all your brain is screaming at you you need those drugs, you need them. But also substances are usually a pain management technique of one kind or another. So when you take the chemicals away, all of a sudden, that pain, all the things that were going on inside, also having to face the way you ruined your life because you're in the midst of an active addiction, all of that is in your face and you don't have any skill or practice at handling it without substances. And so it's really hard to be perfectly absent. Most people can't do it from day one, and that's why I always say the trick it should be about patience and persistence, because persistence is what's going to win the day. Usually it's not perfection.
Speaker 1:I agree, and I agree, and that's how I'm overcoming my problems, instead of chasing that perfection, that perfect abstinence. I mean, let's be honest, if we're going to be really, really honest, does that really work? I mean, it's just simply a no right. But like we said, persistence and patience Some people don't have both. Well, I'm persistent, but I'm certainly not patient. Persistent, but I'm certainly not patient. I at least got one of the traits, but patience is like when the hell is this addiction going to be gone? That's my expectation.
Speaker 1:Persistence is okay, plan A failed. That's plan B. Plan B failed, plan C failed. Okay, now go to a drawing board what went wrong and what went right. Okay, now go to a drawing board what went wrong and what went right, and I'm going to emphasize what went right for me and avoid whatever didn't work for me.
Speaker 1:I'm not a drug expert, listener, so don't pin me as an expert. That's just as genuine as even defaming me, giving me false credentials, because I'm not a drug expert. I just have experience with certain drugs. I might have a drug user that I can say, but I like to hear people about that because I do have family members and all that that has some addictions. And I mean even for you listeners and viewers, not just for me, but for you.
Speaker 1:You can pick a couple of light bulbs that you didn't even think about or even realize that's possible. So just, you know, we try this fail. This person is going to be an addict for the rest. The light bulbs that that you didn't even think about or even realize that's possible. So just you know, we try this fail. This person's going to be an addict for the rest of his or her life, or they, you know, whatever gender they identified with the rest of their life. So, you know, I like to see there's hope and there's certainly hope here, and I like and I said this before I think solutions used to be compatible with the person.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean part of it. So one of the things that makes me think of is sometimes friends or family will tell me my family members tried everything. They've been to rehab eight times. You know they tried everything. And when I ask, what I find out is they actually were offered the same thing eight times, okay. And so, surprise, surprise, it didn't work. I mean it can.
Speaker 2:The fifth time of the same thing might work for some, but really, you're right, it needs to be an individualized assessment and part of that is that for those of us a majority of us who have another mental health condition in addition to our addiction, that needs to be treated right away, from the beginning, if they're going to have the best odds of success.
Speaker 2:So if you or your family member also has depression or anxiety or is bipolar or whatever it is, they should be evaluated before they get into rehab or before their treatment plan is developed to see if they have that other condition as well, and then they should be treated what's called dual diagnosis or co-occurring disorder. Both need to be treated from the beginning. That's going to give them the best odds of success. If you ignore their depression or their anxiety and only treat their addiction, they're going to have a much less likely odds of succeeding because the symptoms of the mental health will push them back towards using.
Speaker 2:It's also why sometimes people say to me do people trade one addiction for another? The likelihood of that happening is going to be much higher if they don't deal with what's underneath their substance use. You have to address what's underneath what was creating the willingness to have all those negative consequences in your life from an addiction and yet keep using. There's something else going on that needs to be addressed so that they can pull themselves out of it and not trade their drug use for gambling or gaming or whatever else it might be.
Speaker 1:It's. That's a very profound point. So, in other words, address the root cause in the first place, instead of just replacing an addiction with another addiction, because that's likely going to happen if we just treat it at a surface or just at a symptomatic level. Correct me if I go off course here. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, we have to deal with what emotional psychological wound that causes us to want us to have these drugs, make us feel good. We don't do it because we necessarily want to, but we want to point out a bit, alleviate that bad, horrible feeling. It was that emotional, psychological escape. If you will, I call it temporary escape, but it was escape nonetheless.
Speaker 1:People do it because they say oh yes, I'm so excited to try weed. Or maybe boredom could be a problem too. Some people do try drugs because they're bored. That was that example. So you know, I mean that's so profound. And sadly, I think these institutions and like the rehabs, they're for profit, so they're not really even. I'm sure some of them know the root causes. This is my cynical belief. You can feel free to disagree, but I think they allow these people to be just put in rehab or throw a lazy evaluation without I'm trying not to curse here just for more profit, because things are run for profit and money and that does purposely dilute the solutions-oriented proposals or plans that I'm sure you're advocating for, you know. So just oh, I want this person to come back to treat the symptom. Come back, come back, come back to increase and maintain that cash flow.
Speaker 2:You know you're right. I mean, there definitely are many, way too many cases of facilities that are getting licenses pulled eventually, but not soon enough, because they're creating this turnstile behavior or they're not doing what they say they're going to do. And that relates to another area we could talk about, which is that a lot of times it's hard for people to evaluate whether this is a good treatment facility or not a good treatment facility. It's hard to get sort of an apples to apples comparison when you're trying to find a place for yourself or a loved one, and so one of the things that I recommend on that front is that the SAMHSA, which is the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, on their website, first of all, you can put your zip code in and get a list of treatment facilities, so that can be useful, although they're not vetted, but at least it gives you a place to start. But SAMHSA has what's called an evidence-based toolkit, treatment toolkit and if you read through that, it'll tell you what should evidence-based treatment look like, and then you could actually use that to ask questions when you're interviewing facilities. Do you do this? Do you do that Like, for example, one of the things I would ask a treatment facility.
Speaker 2:If I was looking for a loved one is do you give them a psychological evaluation to see if they have other mental health conditions? If they do, how would it be treated? Will they see a psychiatrist for medication if necessary? Will they get individual therapy or group therapy?
Speaker 2:Another important question can be what if they relapse? What are you going to do? Throw them out is the wrong answer. The answer should be, as you suggested let's figure out how to strengthen the plan. What are we not doing to help them that they need so that we can make their plan stronger and help them? It should be a sort of a more focused effort rather than a well you know, good luck as you walk out the door. Right, and so there's. Those are important. The evidence based toolkit can help people ask questions so they can at least have some better chance of evaluating. Is this a real, is this a quality facility that cares about my family member and will really help them? Or is this a sort of a turnstile facility that's going to spin a bunch of people through and then kick them to their other facility next door so they can spin them through again?
Speaker 1:Yep, and to me that's my cynical sidekick in it, because that's the main motivator. If it was about treating problems, treating or even solving problems we would have a different outcome. Anxiety, depression, other mental disorders are just going through the roof To me. I see it getting worse, and it's just not me. This is even just recent statistics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, well.
Speaker 2:And the other thing is that we talk sometimes, I feel, like drug policy in particular, there's this.
Speaker 2:When it's discussed, there's sort of this underlying assumption that there is, like treatment on demand for everybody and there isn't. We have a very whole filled system for mental health treatment in general and for addiction treatment in particular, and we also have a very challenging system for getting help to teenagers, and teenage years are when people are most likely to develop new mental health disorders or have the start of their addiction in teenage years. So part of the problem is we do not have a robust treatment system where everybody who needs the care gets the care, and the reality is, in the long run, if we gave them care promptly, especially in their teenage years, we'd actually save money in the long run because the issue would get resolved and there wouldn't be all the negative consequences that flow from not training people and letting them walk around in misery, which it also impacts the rest of us in a variety of ways. So, yeah, it frustrates me when the policy discussions are based around an assumption that there's treatment on demand for everyone when there really is not.
Speaker 1:It's just oh, get this needle, take this drug, that's it off, you go, Come back when you relapse. That's my thinking. I know there's a lot of truth to what I'm saying here, but it's going to get validation for those who are advocates or experts in this field. So, just, I don't know friends or family. It's nice that they agree with me. But I also want people who got the backing of personal experience. Slash expertise. Oh, that means I'm on the right track of at least understanding this issue, because I don't claim to be a drug expert.
Speaker 1:I'm just being just just honest. I'm I'm not, but I am curious about to. I'm curious about learning these things because I know there is gaps where I could, um, improve a certain family member who is addicted to smoking cigarettes. I know it's stress, I know stress is causing they want that feel good, but I know I personally don't know what is the effective replacement and, be honest, I've tried 50 different ideas. I just sort of give up. I'm not judgmental towards that person. I try not to be maybe jokingly, maybe joking too much about. It's probably not the best way handling that because I could take it the wrong way. I'm just being honest, so I'm not, I'm saying it out there. If I I could fake, pretend like, oh no, I don't do anything, well, no, I didn't, I don't do that. How dare you accuse me of doing it? I'm just gonna say what I probably did was was not correct or the best way to um support that family member who was, I think I mean what can't family members and friends do?
Speaker 1:just uh, be a much better support. So it's just feeling sorry for them or just getting frustrated and impatient yeah.
Speaker 2:So that old idea which a lot of us have heard about called tough love, which is sort of what those intervention shows are based on, which basically is I'm not gonna, I'm gonna cut you off until you do what I say, what exactly what I tell you to do when I tell you that actually doesn't have good data. I I mean, it works for some people, everything works for somebody, right. But the best approach for friends and family is called CRAFT. It's Community Reinforcement and Family Training, and CRAFT is more positive reinforcement focused. So it's more about you know if they make any step in the positive direction, let's notice that and support them. So it's more about you know if they make any step in the positive direction, let's notice that and support them. It's also about having honest conversations like what are the drugs doing for you? What need are they meeting? Can we try to get that need met another way, but to have a sort of a conversation that doesn't have a lot of emotion around it, in other words, not an accusatory conversation which creates defensiveness, but an actual, calm conversation.
Speaker 2:And there's a really excellent book for friends and family called Beyond Addiction. There's a book and a workbook and it's on Amazon. Everybody can get it. I'm sure it's in most bookstores and that is based on cramp techniques and it talks about those things. But it also does talk about what friends and family can do and what they can't do.
Speaker 2:For example, for treatment, it could be helpful for the family member to research facilities and offer up some options, which is very different than demanding that you go here today, right. But it also talks about friends and family have to do self-care. Like it is a trauma and a stress on the whole family to have somebody that's struggling with a substance use disorder, and the book talks about how the family members can take care of themselves as well. But I do want to emphasize taking the more positive approach. It doesn't mean you have to let yourself be financially abused or verbally abused or physically abused. You can set appropriate limits, but this talks about how to set the limits in a way that's going to be more effective. So that's always what I recommend for friends and family.
Speaker 1:Listeners. I really hope you're paying attention to that. You can know a lot of other stuff but the craft. I hope you really pay attention to that because this is something that you should be either replaying this, go back, pay attention again. Yes, I'm emphasizing because it's a solution. Okay, I think it's holistic. It doesn't just take care the addict, even those who are impacted indirectly, families or friends. I mean, this is stuff that I that needs to be talked about, spread and put the advocacies and maybe expand on on these models. I mean, look, I like for and I'm going to get to this a little bit Not everyone wants a religious style solution.
Speaker 1:I mean, I totally understand that some people are more secular or scientific based, evidence based solutions. Some people don't. Some people are more logical, scientific minded, fine. Like I said, I think that just go by what is more compatible with the person. If they believe church is going to do something about it, awesome. If they believe rehab is something else is going to do about it, do about that problem, awesome.
Speaker 1:And I, I just think, as long as you try to meet this person's addiction needs because it is a need, that's why they're addicted, it's filling some sort of need it's not the best way of doing it, but it is fulfilling some sort of need that is compromising them in one or many ways. I'm just going to be perfectly honest To me. What's my addiction? Food, that's an addiction. It's not illegal, but it's's an addiction. It's not illegal but still an addiction. When I'm, when I'm stressed out or bored, I eat this nice looking ice cream. It doesn't always have to be drugs. It's something mental, something going on in there that craves, that that strong urge and needs to be fulfilled. It can be something as simple as food or I want to give a more. Let me not be judgmental. Let me actually let me subtract that A more interesting example sniffing stuff that's addiction. You know, I think there's a good thing they ban those fruit markers, because as a kid I was actually addicted to that.
Speaker 1:I smelled watermelon. I smelled peach. I was actually an addict to it. I was like one of them. One of the people should say, oh wow, he's getting an early start of getting into cocaine and storing that stuff. This smells like chocolate. I'm happy to actually don't make those markers as much as they used to, because it was actually addicting as a kid. It's been from anecdotal experience. I wasn't the only one that was addicted to that. Addiction don't even have to be just drugs. These are more sadly, I would say, legally loophole addictions that could be just as problematic or more.
Speaker 2:I think it's more up for debate yeah, I mean, I will point out that, um, alcohol is a drug and it's legal, so it's not about the legality, right, the the core definition of what is an addiction and what is not is continued use, despite notable negative consequences. And that can apply to gambling, that can apply to gaming, that can apply to food, that can apply to sex, that can apply to substance. You know illicit drugs and legal drugs. It can apply, you're right, to a range of behaviors, but that's why you think about it. Sometimes people throw away around that addiction word a little casually. I think you're talking about it in a more serious way. But that's the definition. Is the behavior, because they're all what's called behavioral disorders. Is the behavior causing you notable negative consequences and yet you continue doing it? Now, it's a problematic behavior.
Speaker 1:Listeners. I'm going to keep bothering you. I'm going to keep annoying you. Pay attention. Pay attention. I don't care if I'm antagonizing you right now. This is solutions here. Drop your emotional Kool-Aid, open your ears here. This is actually important stuff to listen to. You can forget all the other stuff I've said. I won't even care as much. This is something I need to pick up. I am being your audio, your vocal, annoying highlighter right now.
Speaker 1:Rewind this. If you have to Again, rewind this, because this is actually valuable stuff here that you're talking about. This is not just to make myself feel good, even though it partially does, but that's besides the point. This is something that I'm learning as a host. Hosts don't know everything. Hosts are just willing to guide a conversation in a certain direction. That's the most casual definition I give as a host. That's it. They don't know everything. They definitely don't know everything. The guests don't know everything either, but they certainly have insight that is valuable Insight when it comes to addiction. So pay attention to that. All right, just pay attention. I just really need you to pay attention because this is very valuable stuff here.
Speaker 1:And, trust me, if I have so much free time, this could easily go on for three hours. I am just saying that right now, but sadly, mary Beth and I, we are busy people. Okay, maybe we could do another reschedule. We'll see. Okay, and I won't be surprised. I will definitely invite her back. I'm just being very honest. This is very valuable stuff. Whether you believe in God or not, that's your personal choice. Okay, I don't believe in force. You make that choice, you live by it. You live by the good, the bad, ugly, whatever. No, and that's what I'm going to say about that. That's entirely up to you.
Speaker 2:Some people, live fine lives.
Speaker 1:I know a few people, but this is about addiction here, and if God ends up being your solution, awesome. And if you find a solution without him, which is the guest's case here, awesome. I'm a pragmatic person. Whatever works for you, that's all I care about. I'm pragmatic at that aspect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I agree with that. I mean look. So I'd say a couple of things on this sort of the faith-based versus non-faith-based recovery and one of them so 12 steps, you know is really it requires a higher power. Now it does say you can define your higher power, but it requires it. But I will say first of all, I think my recovery way that worked for me for a lot of people, 12 steps does work for them. I'm happy for them, I support them in that. But I'll also say that it's not like there's this hard line where all the faith-based people go to 12 steps and all the non-faith-based people go to other peer support groups like Life Ring, secular Recovery or SheRecovers or Smart Recovery support groups like Life Ring, secular Recovery or SheRecovers or Smart Recovery, there are actually atheists and agnostics that make 12 Steps work.
Speaker 2:And there are a lot of faith-based and spiritual people in the other programs because they prefer them for reasons other than higher power. So they may prefer Life Ring because our program is about building a personal, individualized recovery plan and we talk a lot about that and the emphasis is on building up your sober self. It's a self-empowerment focus. So there's not a hard split between all the faith-based people go here and all the non-faith people that are there. But for those who have faith, that can be a help in recovery. I mean, for some people, knowing that they have a God or however they define it on their side can make them feel less stressed or more optimistic about the future. So it's really about what's right for you, what's going to help you, what techniques work for you as a whole package, not just on the faith or not faith side.
Speaker 2:And the other thing I'll say about that is that the data shows that actually it doesn't matter as far as success goes. So there is a study that compared the effectiveness of AA, lifering, secular Recovery, smart Recovery and Women for Sobriety and found out they all work equally well. And so what's important is that people pick where they're most comfortable, because what I see is just read up on those four and maybe SheRecovers and recovery Dharma those are the six largest. One or two of those groups are going to sound like my people are there. Go to that one. You'll be the most comfortable. You'll feel like you're talking to people that think like you have a perspective, like you're going to have a better chance of success, and that's all I ever care about. I'm on the board for lifering.
Speaker 1:I don't care if people pick lifering, I want them to pick where they're going to be. Where they're going to have the is compatible to them and that's, and that. I think that's something that's not being mentioned a lot, I think. That's why I feel like I have to be the one that says it and, of course, having guessed that max, we all, even seeing the wording, it's totally different, but it ends up being the same thing, at least that core value. You know it's. It's great. I just think that you know one size fits all, it's been.
Speaker 1:Or these cheap, quick solutions, I mean, they work short term at best, but long term it's just the effects die out, so it's practically nothing. And and we need something that works individually, that's right, the individual base plan, as opposed to okay, everyone, just take this, just have this nicotine patch. Okay, nicotine patch for you. This, just have this nicotine patch. Okay, nicotine patch for you, nicotine patch for you, nicotine patch for you. Yeah, candy, oh, nicotine patch for you. I'm not sure nicotine patch can help with a candy addiction, but nicotine patch for you. My point is, what size hole fits all?
Speaker 2:It's a bad example but you get by Well, you know. The other thing I'll say about that is, for example, treatment. Not everybody needs to go inpatient and, like you see on movies and TV, everybody goes in for 28 or 30 days. Well, first of all, 28 or 30 days is often not long enough for some people Like I went in for. My program was 90 day minimum and I really needed longer term. But not everybody has to go inpatient.
Speaker 2:There are also outpatient programs that are only like a couple nights a week so you can live at home and you can go to work, and yet you can be in treatment in the evenings. There are therapists and doctors who have special training in addiction that can help you, including there are medications for alcohol use disorder and opioid use disorder. There are what are called peer support specialists or recovery coaches that help people through the process to do an evaluation and build a plan and work with them. And then there are the peer support groups like 12 Steps and Life Ring. I mean there's a variety of options and it's not like everybody has to. Everybody first goes inpatient and then they do this and no, even if people could benefit from inpatient, a lot of people can't go because they don't have insurance that will cover and they don't have cash, but for some times they also need it because not everyone is at the same severity in their addiction.
Speaker 2:So substance use disorder, like all mental health conditions, is on a curve mild, moderate or severe. You can have a mild version, a moderate version or a severe version. Well, if you have a mild to moderate version, you probably don't need to go inpatient. At least you don't need to start there unless other approaches have failed. It's the sort of the treatment landscape, or what your recovery plan landscape should be, is really varied on a number of factors like how severe is your addiction?
Speaker 2:Do you have insurance or cash? Where do you live geographically and what do you have access to? Do you have a co-occurring mental health disorder as well? Are you going to work on this with your friends and family or not? I mean, there's a lot of different factors that go into the right plan and it's not ever going to be one size fits all. If all you have access to is like this is the only program in my geographic area that I can actually get into, do your best to make it work. And one of the nice things today is that there's internet access to a lot of options. So even if you're not in the best fit, you can supplement that by going to, let's say, a peer support group like Life Ring or she Recovers. That will help you because what you're forced into isn't the right fit. But ideally, do your best to try to find a place that, a plan that's going to fit your personal circumstances and your personal ability to access it.
Speaker 1:Listeners, listeners and viewers. I just hope you are just paying attention to this. Attention is your one of your most valued commodities. Forget money and all that other stuff. That's secondary. If you're paying attention to junk, you're going to get junk.
Speaker 1:If you're paying attention to solutions, even if you're dealing with this problem, things will turn around, just like she said. It could be short-term for, like the mild to moderate addictions, and it's severe. It's going to be long. What do you mean by long? Maybe months, even years, as long as you are not giving up. Let's go back to persistence and definitely patience, to powerful peace. Okay, I think it's going to work out, because I knew another family member who was a clinical. Going to work out because I knew another family member who was a clinical.
Speaker 1:You know he had mental problems and medication works well for this one. I mean, medication works well. Personally I'm against it, but I'm not him right, I can't project my own personal opinion. Oh, I don't think you should take medications. I mean, he's going to make you go a little more crazy. See, now I'm becoming a problem, I'm the external problem, but medication has proved to work great for this family member. And then the other one he's definitely anti-medication, so medication's not going to work for the other one. So that's why individual plans are important.
Speaker 2:Oh, Medicaid, Medicaid, Medicaid.
Speaker 1:That's now. Yeah, it's needed for all cases. Some cases, of course. Yeah, I might completely dismiss it, but that's why we need individual plans. I think that's a better solution as opposed to okay, just nicotine for everybody, medication for everybody, and get out, come back when you screw up again. So no, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean the medication for opioid use disorder and alcohol use disorder. A lot of people are on a short term. Some people do need it longer term, but for a lot of people it's to get them through that early like three to six month period where the cravings are the worst. And the data shows like, for example, the medication for opioid use disorder cuts the risk of dying from an overdose more than in half, you know, 50 to 60% less risk. So they can be important, but it is an individual assessment as to what they're comfortable with but also how long do they need the medication. But you don't need to decide that on day one, you don't know. Just know that many people do get off of it in a few months. But it can be a bridge, sort of a bridge to help during the worst of the craving times. And I mean, I think with alcohol in particular, we focus so much on the illicit drugs but the reality is that alcohol is still killing more Americans than the overdoses, even though we are having an overdose epidemic. And I think we underappreciate that Alcohol is the most used drug other than tobacco. Tobacco kills more than alcohol and all the other drugs combined, but alcohol kills more than all of the overdoses combined from all the drugs, and so it's still an ongoing issue, and there's definitely medication that can help people get through the early craving period of alcohol use disorders. So there's that.
Speaker 2:But I will also go back to one thing about the patience and persistence I want to throw out there. Look, I've got 31 years of sobriety. Okay, you're not meeting me at three months? Okay, I didn't like the patience and persistence thing either. Like I was 32 years old when I got sober. I had a Berkeley degree and good grace and an embarrassing resume, because I couldn't hold a job for 10 years because I was using meth and I wanted, like many of us, I wanted to leap ahead, like let me fix that, like make up for lost time, you know, like that's your impulse.
Speaker 2:But I had to rein it in. I had to rein it in because it wasn't going to work. There was no way, just say, professionally, nobody was going to hire me for a career job, but I also wasn't ready for it, and so I really had to force myself to get realistic about where am I and what am I ready to handle and what can I actually attain. And the other thing for me was that I would fall at the very severe end of that spectrum because it was meth, shooting meth for a very long time. But I wanted to. I wanted to.
Speaker 2:I had broken so many things that when I got home from rehab I made a list of everything to work on and that list was like I don't know 18 or 20 items long, and it turned out it wasn't even comprehensive. There was more, but you can't work on 20 things on day one. You can't. It's impossible. So I had to, like, prioritize, like I picked five things. I picked my sobriety, working on my trauma, trying to get back to work, my relationship with my partner, which was on the edge of collapse, and trying to get my debt under control, and everything else.
Speaker 2:I said it has to wait, and don't get me wrong again. I didn't want to wait, but there was no way to start working on that whole list in the beginning, and so part of it is just that you have to be practical and realistic, even though you might not like it. I didn't like it either, but it was the only way forward. It really was the only way forward.
Speaker 1:Let me hear that. She had so much problems. She had a. That's a laser in. I'll probably say the top five for free correctly. I'm talking about what you hear, what to work on before she gets to the rest of the 13.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's that's definitely more realistic and pragmatic and manageable. I got to say, even though I would still say still tough, those five, those are really, I'll say, the key five that you will neglect those even further. I don't want to imagine what would happen next. I'm just going to put that little black box and just lock it up because we don't want to go there. It just seems to be far more. She will not be be here. Let's just say that that's one possibility, okay, and or she could have been just a lifelong addict. You know, and, and you know this, this is actually inspirational. That's why I like, um, I like with certain people, especially with certain difficult stories. I said, look, this is you can't overcome this. That's the main message here. I'm sure you have more, but one of them is you can overcome this yes, yes, it's started too pretty, I'll say pretty late.
Speaker 1:Started too, because I'll be in their 30s and 40s they feel like it's hopeless.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm gonna be this way for the rest of my life. So this say it's this little subtle ageist component in there I think needs to be addressed as well. I'll say it's too old to change oldness. I'm an addict for life. I'm a fat person for life. I'm a poor person for life. You don't know that If you make changes, I'm sure things could get better. I think a lot of people get stuck. They have that fixed mindset. If you will, I'd like this the rest of my life. Who cares? Go right ahead. I want to hear your valuable insight.
Speaker 2:Part of cares. Now go right ahead. I want to hear your valuable insight. Well, part of all I'll say is that when I got sober at 32, I mean, first of all I felt ancient and I had like I knew I had wasted my education, I was in a bad place. But I also thought, well, yes, life can get better, but it can only sort of like get this better and like to hear. I really felt like, yeah, but there's gonna be like a cap on how much better it can get because I just wasted and destroyed so much. But it turned out that wasn't true.
Speaker 2:Like professionally, when I got home from rehab I did not think one day I'll be a judge. Like that wasn't on my radar, right. What I thought was let me not get fired again. Like that was my first professional goal, let's not get fired again, right? Like that was really where I was. And so my first job was like a temporary, part-time admin job. And then my second job was like a full-time, permanent mid-level job. And then I got a job at a bigger company and I got a promotion.
Speaker 2:And then, at six years and I emphasize six and a half, actually years sober, I went to Berkeley Law School, six and a half years, and I worked as a lawyer for a long time and at 20 years sober, I was appointed a federal judge 20 years.
Speaker 2:And so it was really always about like what's the right next step and how do I prepare myself to be able to take that right next step? But it was incremental. I never thought when I got sober that I would end up a judge, but even more than that, I never thought my life would be as happy and productive and rewarding as it is. I mean, the important part of recovery is getting out of the chaos. Right Like now I can be a good wife and a good aunt and you know and a good member of my community, as well as my professional accomplishments, and I can be happy and spend time doing activities I enjoy. I mean life is more rewarding and fulfilling and enjoyable than I could even imagine when I first entered sobriety. So there's a lot to look forward to. A lot to look forward to.
Speaker 1:From junkie to judge. You can overcome it Like a federal judge at that, not just some local claim. Small judge, federal judge, that's a very, that's a very high position. Okay, you think all the more squeaky clean and all that you know, perfect backgrounds.
Speaker 1:There's no such thing. Let's be honest, that's the perception that's put in front of us, or the assumptions we make. Because they have such a prestigious position now, this human must be perfect. That's not true. There's always blemishes somewhere. We're human, you're not. You know mystical beings that's supposed to be flawless. And you know, we got this meat suit that is, you know, prone to addiction and decay and obesity, all these bad things. We're in this meat suit that's prone to all these things.
Speaker 1:So you know we all got issues, but it is manageable and you could overcome it. That's, at least I would say, one of the main messages. And, like it's never too late, to another one you could throw in there, it's never too late, that's another one. And I'm sure she got like 20 trillion more, because it's her story, not mine, but based on what I'm gathering here, those are at least some of the key ones, and let's just chime in, chime in, see what messages you can get out of it. After listening to this, I will say amazing conversation. I actually enjoyed it. I know it was going to be great, but it even beat my expectations. This is even better than I thought, so I already had like a scale from one to 10.
Speaker 1:At an expectation of eight, I would say it easily hit a 10 for me. I was even engaged, I was interested in myself, I felt like I was a participant sometimes. So if you make a whole strike participant in a very engaging way, I would say that's an awesome guess. And look, I could throw in PodMatch, because PodMatch is so much more organized. But I've learned how to work without that system. I had to kind of go backwards. I always like to work without that system.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 1:I tested my patience and persistence. At times I had to look through email threads which I became a spoiled brat. I got addicted to an easy process, even addiction there. An easy process because it was so easy. You get addicted to things because it's easy. I mean easy convenience is an addiction.
Speaker 1:I know that's a little bit of a hot take, but it doesn't have to be drugs or even gambling or all that. But even being you know and I'm being really honest with myself I masturbated very easy. For me I had to do a 10 step approach Instead of a 5 step approach, which I'm so used to doing. But hey, um, if I would have just be prejudiced against pot match, all I'm going to say is this interview would have never happened. I was like, oh, this person, I pot got traffic. Forget it, who cares? Uh, who cares? I'll do all this work. I got better things to do, but you know what? I even challenged myself and I got with myself to shoot dang it, elias it together.
Speaker 1:You know you didn't mind digging through all this stuff before. What made you lazy? What made you so freaking lazy all of a sudden? And look, you got to discipline yourself too, because if you just let yourself go. You're going to be let go, and so that's all I'm going to say about that. So enough about me and my silly little issues, lighthearted issues here. But I hope you're just getting something out of this because I really think, especially from her story and what her insights, I hope you pay attention to her even more. Yeah, see, I'm not the evil Driffin, I'm just guiding the conversation because I'm curious myself, because I like to learn how to be better, and there was blind spots where I'm sure I could have been more effective, so to say, say oh, this person's an addict, there's no hope for him or her. Who cares?
Speaker 2:you know, I sometimes I just give up.
Speaker 1:Just say that. Just because I give up, I feel hopeless and despair. You don't have to be powerless and you can even take care of yourself while you take care of the other person. It's not. You know, sometimes you have to be a little bit selfish just to take care of yourself before you can care for others. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it makes sense, because you can't always take care of everybody. If you're not taking care of yourself, that's how you collapse. So you know I'm touching more on the communal, family friends impact of someone who is an addict, at least a diagnosed addict. I think a lot of us are addicts or we're way another. Just some of us have been caught and diagnosed and some are not. So if I take look, I'm not diagnosed as an addict, but I am an addict in certain things.
Speaker 1:I already said food, all right, and that's something I need to be working on. I need to find a personal approach that's good for me, like for me, walking outside seeing beautiful scenery is good exercise for me. You tell me to go to gym. I will happily curse you out. Is he trying to kill me? But if I go outside, even jog, get that fresh air, I'm happy, I'm happy. So that's why individual plan is important. Tell me to go to gym. I'm a totally different person. I'm demonic. I'll become bad. I said I don't go there. Smell that sweaty filth and all of that. Yes, it's coming from men. Yeah, I'm a little bit of a high standard. You can say I have a very feminine nose, a sensitive nose. I don't care. I'm proud of saying that. I'm not going to go in there. Deal with that rotten sock smell dirty equipment, filthy bathrooms, dirty lockers. I refuse to do that. No, thank you. But if you tell me to go jog out there and I can watch myself at home, you got my attention. What's the next spot you can take me to? Now? You got my attention. If you tell me to go to the gym, you're going to get my middle finger. So that's why individual plan is important. It's a little bit silly and comical. That's why individual plan is important. What works for this person? Okay, so that's all I'm going to say. Enough of my yam, let's do a massive shameless plug.
Speaker 1:She got a lot of products. She got her lovely book From Junkie to Judge, a very provocative title that I'm sure to get your attention. Get that. And I also got a link to her website, which has some good short articles from various newspapers. Well, I call it news sites because, let's be real, newspaper is nearly extinct. Look, don't get me wrong. Every once in a while I like to feel the paper, even though I'm a millennial. Yeah, you call it nostalgia, because as a kid I used to hold papers until the internet grew big and I didn't need that as much. That's more of a me issue right there. But news sites, I mean, she gave some great articles. I was even listening to her video. I mean, give it a listen, go to her site. And what's the organization that you're a part of? For some reason I'm blanking out.
Speaker 2:Yes, so my website is junkietojudgecom and also, if people forget, they can just look for Junkie Judge and I'm really Google-able at this point.
Speaker 2:But those articles are articles that I wrote that I had published in different you know, ballet times and recovery today and others. But I'm on the board for Life Ring Secular Recovery, which is peer support, and I'm also on the board for she Recovers Foundation, which is also peer support for women. But she Recovers isn't just for substance recovery. It's also for mental health, trauma, other behavioral disorders, like we talked about, overwork, perfectionism. It's for whatever the women are in recovery from, because most people that have a substance addiction have one or more of those other things to work on, and in SheRecovers you can talk about it all together. And then I will also throw out that I'm on X, you know, twitter, at MaryBethO underscore and Blue Sky MaryBethO'Connor, and on my social media. I do not argue with people but I will provide like articles and studies and my recovery thoughts, and so if people are interested in those, they can always follow me there.
Speaker 1:I will say LinkedIn is better for that, as we have that professional question.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Because that link is really tailored to that professional networking and all that. And I'm sure you're not going to have the trolls curse you out, call you all kinds of names, just because they disagree with you. They, you know they feel attacked because you have a different idea. Different ideas doesn't mean they're attacking you. Disagreement does not equal hate. How many times do I have to yell this?
Speaker 2:out.
Speaker 1:I'm getting addicted to just saying this statement. I don't know I should be addicted just to say that idiotic statement. Grow up, people, please, just just just grow up. You know I'm sure you don't pay attention to them, but you know, just just call people names or the other person that he, she, is arguing against. Look them. Look, you're treated like it's a lincoln. I think lincoln would be. I mean, lincoln is perfectly about better for that, because at least we have more professional people now, say 99.99 percent of the time as opposed to twitter and facebook. Well, facebook's a mixed bag, twitter is. Some people are just really nasty. I'm just being honest.
Speaker 2:It's not me being left-wing.
Speaker 1:It's just analysis. You know, I choose whatever platform is good for you. I'm not gonna say cancel this and cancel that, I don't support that either. You go for what's best for you. I'm not going to say cancel this or cancel that, I don't support that either. You go for what's best for you. You love arguing, you love being vicious. Twitter is good for you. Yes, I refuse to call it X. I think it's just stupid rebranding. In my opinion, the lefties agree with me on that. Yeah, I'm with the left on that one. Hardly with the left. I think that's such a stupid rebrand. But all right, let me be quiet and just wrap this up because, look, I could get addicted to talking about problems. That's more of a psychological addiction. I'll say it's good to some degree, but if you get fixated, of course that's a problem. That's why it's an addiction, because it's prolonged. You do something that you do repeatedly.
Speaker 1:It has negative consequences, you're aware of it, but you just keep doing it doing it, doing it, doing it because it fills that urge that needs to be fulfilled immediately. It's not great, but you know, not all addictions have to be drugs and material. It's psychological and behavior. It's behavior-based at the end of the day, and it doesn't always need alcohol or food or anything like that. So that's the reason why I'm bringing up these silly examples. But they can relate to addiction. So people are addicted to conflict.
Speaker 2:He's makes them alive, makes them feel alive you know.
Speaker 1:But hey, you know it's been great having Mary Beth. I will just, you know I could have slipped up, said Mary Poppins, for whatever silly reason, because I'm thinking about something pretty positive right now and just mixing things up together. This is why sometimes my brain goes like 200 miles per hour, thinking like too many things, and you got to kind of keep it. You know, focused, focused, focused, right. That's why discipline is very important. Anything else you want to add before I wrap this up?
Speaker 2:I guess anything I'll add is that people can message me through my website. So if anybody has any questions or about anything I said or other speaking opportunities, feel free to reach out to me through my website.
Speaker 1:All righty then. So now for my shameless plug-in part. Join PopMatch if you want to make my life a little easier. It has a beautiful webpage. It has a nice setup. Questions are always ready to answer. Put your achievements social medias, websites, what have you? Join to answer both your achievements social medias, websites. Whatever you join, I'll put the link right there. Give a like, subscribe, give a review at Apple Podcasts. If you're doing that on Spotify, I will ignore you because I don't care about Spotify's opinion. I'll use it as a playlist. That's it. I'm not treating it like it's a business. I'm not treating that site like it's a business for me.
Speaker 1:I'll, I'm not treating that site like it's a business for me. I pay to drop a podcast. Go to Buzzsprout as well. Don't leave an opinion. Leave a comment. What do you like, what do you don't like? And you know, sadly I even welcome you haters, you know, just voice your opinion. You use this as a little therapy session just to let out your hate and you'll be ignored. I'll just use it for, you know, value to the conversation. I will respond. But if it's, you know, I'm going to say I'm going to say this initial evoking if your mom, for example, I'm not responding to that, I'm just not. I refuse to be addicted to that conflict. So it is just a waste of my time. So if you went through this whole episode of video and audio content, great, I thank you and all I can say is just have a blessed day. Bye.
