Politically High-Tech
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Politically High-Tech
291- Healing America's Fractured Soul With Phyllis Leavitt
America's mental health crisis extends beyond individuals to our national discourse, creating escalating divisions that threaten our collective well-being and future. Psychotherapist Phyllis Leavitt explains how applying family systems therapy principles to our societal problems could create pathways for healing our fractured nation.
• Mentally healthy people don't want to hurt each other - they seek relationship repair, listening, and taking responsibility rather than blame
• Our political system currently models behaviors we wouldn't tolerate in schools, workplaces, or families
• The win-lose dynamic dominating our politics has reached a dangerous point where our ability to destroy each other threatens our survival
• Immigration issues require examining root causes - people flee homelands due to conditions often influenced by developed nations' interference
• Inside every perpetrator is an unhealed victim - understanding this helps address the true origins of destructive behavior
• Social media algorithms amplify our worst tendencies by feeding us increasingly divisive content based on our engagement patterns
• Small positive actions matter - millions of Americans doing good work represent our potential for healing
• We must choose between being right and having relationships that sustain us
• Concrete suggestion: trained facilitators in Congress could transform political discourse by enforcing basic rules of civil communication
Healing begins with each of us in our own spheres of influence - we can all be better listeners, more compassionate, and committed to repairing relationships rather than winning arguments.
Your host and Phyllis E. Leavitt discuss on how to heal America from chaos and division; starting with the family to American Politicians.
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welcome everyone to politically high tech and I have a very, very great reoccurring guest. Those of you who pay attention, um, can you guess who it is? Not, I mean, you could cheat through the description, I don't care, I'm not going to quiz you, but I'm going to assume you cheated because I'm paranoid, I'm cynical and I don't trust you, you know. But this one here she, you know she is addresses something that's very important and very fundamental, that we forget as a very distracted, chaotic, I would just say irrationally confrontational society. Okay, it's just getting. I would just say it's getting worse.
Speaker 1:On the national level, I would say, if you want to say it's getting better, you got to go to certain communities, you got to dig deeper the national discourse. It's. It's more terrible. Before it's easy to find clips of politicians of the opposite party arguing like immature children exploiting the rules, and it's just appalling. And our tax dollars go to these people. That's the most offensive part to me. Forget about the name calling and all that. This is offensive to me.
Speaker 1:I don't care your left, right, center, green rainbow party, communist party, I don't care what party you're in this is, but I'm gonna blame most of your den republicans, the democrats, republicans because you're out of major parties. Okay, so you're the major parties. I'm gonna blame you two more than all the other parties. All right, there you go. Anyways, I'm gonna. I will'm going to turn to a big hypocrite if I keep me hammering, so I'm just going to let her. I'm just going to call her the podcast therapist. I'll just put a nice term. I can say psychoanalyst, but I can say, oh, I got to be kooky and crazy. Let's welcome her back and let's see if I get that last name right, because I got it wrong the last time. Phyllis Levin, right.
Speaker 2:You got it right, phyllis Levin, yay.
Speaker 1:What do you want the listeners and the viewers to know about you before we get started?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much for having me here to talk with you. You know I love the topic of so I'm a therapist. I've been a psychotherapist for my whole career. I'm a therapist. I've been a psychotherapist for my whole career. I'm also an author, but I've worked with families and children and couples and individual adults for many, many years, and I wrote a book recently called America in Therapy A New Approach to Hope and Healing for a Nation in Crisis.
Speaker 2:Believe that looking seriously at our mental health is the challenge that we face today and that one of the beauties of looking at what's going on in our country or our personal lives or our communities schools, businesses, churches, states you know larger communities any organization of people we know from the field of psychology operates on a certain kind of family dynamic, and it's either a healthy family dynamic or it's a dysfunctional, unhealthy and often abusive family dynamic. And so it occurred to me quite a while back that I really needed to take that lens and look at what's going on in our country through that family systems lens, so that we can really understand what's going on here in a different way, because right now we're being conditioned to believe that all of the escalating divisiveness and violence and discrimination and injustice and withholding of resources and the propensity toward war is based on our ideological differences and, from a psychological point of view, we know that's not the case. What we're dealing with is a declining state of our mental health and the reason, very simply, why that is so and how we can understand that. Anybody can understand it. It's not a deep psychological, academic question that we're asking On a very simple level.
Speaker 2:Mentally healthy people don't want to hurt each other, they don't want to wage war, they don't want to kill anyone, they don't want to starve anyone, they don't want to hate. They're really committed to relationship, to repairing relationship, to listening, to building compassion, to being self-responsible for their own part in any dynamic rather than being focused on blaming other people for the problems that they face. Mentally healthy people are really committed to non-violent conflict resolution. Are mentally healthy people perfect?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:We're all human. Sometimes we're triggered, sometimes we get angry, sometimes we're afraid, sometimes we're really upset or want to wall off or just blame and target someone of their impulses and come back to the table and try to work out their human relations because they know that actually that makes for a happier life, it makes for greater safety. We come into this world wired for love and belonging and to the extent that we don't get that wired for love and safe belonging let me say to the extent that we don't get that we become symptomatic and we act out on ourselves and or other people. So we are actually healthier as a whole nation as well as individually in our own lives or smaller communities, when we commit ourselves to the repair of relationship and not escalating violence and hatred. And that's really the point of my book. How do we look at ourselves that way? Not with blame, shame or a desire for retribution, but how do we take the healing principles of the best psychotherapy and apply them to our country to really save us from ourselves?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, well, this is definitely a more well, not that the other one was. This is definitely more of a positive lead um introduction. I'll see a little more tip, as it was more like a neutral introduction. So there, that's a little bit different state. Go check the previous episode, listeners and viewers, because I try not to be repetitive unless it's a supremely important point. You know, um, but I think america's not listening, so I will accept some repetition on some things, like we got to stop the war, you know, and why, you know. Just use these two country example Israel and Iran. Why are they at? Like psychotic fools as well, bomb each other to oblivion, right, and this is what we get to get into, and a couple of other topics, not just a big geopolitical stuff, which you know.
Speaker 2:That's just a macro symptom of all that, because you got crazy people who are in charge, just put it simply okay to have unhealed wounds that hasn't been addressed or they choose to ignore I don't know what the details, I'm not them, I cannot get in their brain, but something went wrong along the way and they're in power and whoop-de-doo One of the things you can say from a psychological point of view is that when people are hurt or when they have terrible role models for relationships and most of us grew up with the role model of someone's right and someone's wrong, someone's good and someone's bad and the people who believe they're right believe that they have the power and the justification for dominating the people that they believe are bad and wrong and that whole dynamic, which is a win-lose dynamic somebody has to win the argument, somebody has to win the war, somebody has to win the trade war and somebody has to lose that is actually really needing to be examined and undone. It might have been the way people were for all of human history, but we've reached a tipping point where our ability to dominate other people has put us at risk of mass extinction because we have the kind of nuclear weapons and chemical additives that can destroy our ability to survive on this planet, and we haven't been at that place before. This is a real turning point in human history that I think a lot of people have not really wanted to take in or really even understand that our ability to try to conquer other people and be right and win puts us all at risk, and so it's time to re-examine the dynamics that we're operating on, and for me, the paradigm shift that we need is a win-win. That means we're committed, and this is what you see in therapy. Like if a couple comes to therapy, yeah, they each come in the door wanting to prove to the therapist that the other person is okay. If you're slamming doors or calling names or threatening, those things are not okay, but they're identified not as your good or bad or right or wrong. But how can you, if what you really want is to get through to the other person, you're not going to get through to them and get what you want in the relationship if you're behaving in certain ways that are destructive or aggressive or, you know, in some other way, hurtful, and so how can you learn to approach your partner in a way that's actually going to give you the love and safe belonging and compassion and being heard that you want?
Speaker 2:And the underlying principle of that is there's two things. One of them is that a lot of therapy is focused on healing the wounds that you suffered, that we all suffered in some way, that have set us up to have dysfunctional coping mechanisms in a relationship. So sometimes it's really a matter of going back into one's childhood. Maybe there was abuse, maybe there was neglect, maybe there was addiction in the family, maybe a parent left and never came back and there was a grief and loss. Maybe someone died and was really important to you and you never got help for any of those things and so you survived the best you could given what you had, but maybe it wasn't so great.
Speaker 2:What you developed as a coping mechanism as a child and you're discovering that it's not working in your adulthood, so maybe you became really aggressive as a child because you felt like you had to defend yourself. Well, that kind of aggression is probably not working in your current marriage or with your children, or with your boss or with your employees. So, through no fault of your own, you did the best you could with what you had, but what you have isn't working. And just like we need to look at ourselves in therapy, you know, for our own well-being and the well-being of our relationships and our families, we need to do that as a country being of our relationships and our families, we need to do that as a country.
Speaker 2:Maybe what we learned when we came here and we, you know, nominated the Native Americans and tried to wipe them out and took slaves. Maybe we thought that was okay to do, but is it working? Is it right? Is it producing effects that are boomeranging back and hurting us and millions of people right now? Can we be responsible for that and change our ways without collapsing into deep shame, but to really just be accountable and these are some of the things you learn in therapy how do you be accountable and take responsibility for yourself? That's really that's the key, and a lot of that work, as I said I'll just repeat that is based in healing your own wounds. We all came by our dysfunction. You know understandably, and as adults, we have a responsibility to rework it if it's harming us or other people.
Speaker 1:I know there is a certain quote. I could work here. I'm going to butcher it, but I'm going to say it anyways. I think, brian, I like what you said because I would say sometimes I'm just going to say this as best as I can before you even chime in Sometimes the solutions we use and since we don't know any other way, it's really effective the short term. Maybe the person had to be aggressive because they had really got to survive. It was life or death. But since we didn't learn any of the mold, we're fixated, we're stuck in it, and then it becomes a toxic trait and, you know, you argue with the friend or co-worker, the boss, the wife, if you have, or husband, whoever. You just become so confrontational because you just think everyone is out to get you. Yeah, it serves you well in situations maybe one or two, but three and on it's a big problem. You see, this is a good, great, classic example when a solution becomes a problem.
Speaker 2:And I think you described our defense structure very well, because if you're a child, maybe being aggressive is the only way you know how to protect yourself, or maybe shutting down and isolating is the only way you knew how to protect yourself. Or maybe it was becoming a people pleaser, or maybe it was becoming driven into success and feeling like you have to be a workaholic to be noticed or to achieve in the world. There's lots of ways that people decided to survive that don't serve them and they really don't serve relationship in their adult life, and that's part of the difficulty is that we get so invested in our defenses that we lose the sense of connection to other people and we need that sense of connection to other people. And the more we go on in our individual lives and as a society and as a country damaging our sense of connection to other people or minimizing the value of our connection to other people, which is really being connected to your own humanity, the more we lose that, the easier it is to bomb people or steal from them or dominate them or rape them or put them into some kind of slavery or throw them in jail and throw away the key instead of trying to help them, and so we're really at great risk.
Speaker 2:Really, the big mental health challenge is that we're losing our connection to our own humanity. Mental health challenge is that we're losing our connection to our own humanity and that opens the door to war. And when we open the door to war, we open the door possibly to our own extinction. And the quick thing I just want to say about that is you know, people come to therapy to get out of the wars they're in in their life, the wars with themselves, with their children, with their spouses, with their employers or their employees or their communities. They come to find peace, they come to find reconciliation, they come to find healing. And that gap between what causes so much pain in our own lives and what's now causing inordinate pain on a national and global level, that gap is a mental health issue.
Speaker 1:It's not an ideological issue oh yeah, absolutely, and listeners and viewers who know me, I like to be joking lighthearted are you really getting something out of this? Because this is a problem, and I'm gonna throw in even social media. Stick to that, because that's out. That's more the symptom of our declining mental health and our ability to socialize, to even be human. Because I do agree it that's being diminished some to some extent incrementally, and even people who already screwed up exponentially. It's just going downhill. How downhill? Maybe it's like, maybe it's like a, you know, like a hill that's not too steep, or it is. For some people it's really extreme. It's going downhill hill that's not too steep, or for some people it's really extreme. You just go downhill, just like this and you get a splat. So, figuratively speaking, don't take this literally, okay, because I want you to be safe, believe it or not. So don't take this literally.
Speaker 1:Let me give two politicians an example where there's toxic communication between these two and for some reason they get publicity and the cool kids will call it clout For one political party. I'm going to mention the Republican one, first, audrey Taylor Greene, and it should get into conflict with the Republican one. First Audrey Taylor Greene, and then she gets into conflict with the other one. For the Democrat, jasmine Crockett. Every time they both are in their committee meetings, it's easy for the media to find clips of them being combative and arguing with each other, and my only question to you is how will you?
Speaker 2:advise them to address one another in a more productive manner. A lot of what we see happens in Congress, for instance, or in the news, politically, are behaviors that our children would be thrown out of school if they demonstrated in the classroom. So that's another huge gap that we allow and even condone or enjoy or get a kick out of seeing somebody be highly combative and not even try to work things out or listen to each other, when we wouldn't want that with our spouse, we wouldn't want our children to behave that way in school, we wouldn't want our employer to treat us that way on the job, and so we're role modeling things for the whole populace that are dysfunctional, that are sometimes abusive and they're very, very hurtful. And you know the whole world is watching and children are very impressionable and when they see people in power and positions of authority behaving in ways that we in our own homes or schools or offices would not allow, then the line between appropriate behavior and inappropriate behavior disappears and our values get very compromised about what it means to be a citizen, to be part of a community, to be part of a government or a school or a family. So I think it's very dangerous.
Speaker 2:One of the recommendations that I have, and I know that we're a long way from many of the things that I talk about. But if we don't talk about them, how do we learn them? So it might still be a long way from a complete cure for cancer, but if we don't keep trying, we won't find a cure right. So it's the same with our mental health we have to keep talking about what is needed. One of the things that we could easily implement in Congress if we had the will, if we had the will and that's a big if would be to have trained facilitators, moderating the conversation. Not allowing people to act out on one another, not allowing name calling or raised voices or just blame and shame, but actually teaching people the skills for listening, for deep listening, for taking responsibility for themselves, for examining their own motivations and behaviors, for making amends when they misspeak and for actually seeking resolution. If we had that role modeled in Congress today, we would have a different country, just that.
Speaker 1:A completely different country. We'd be a far more productive country, and I love what you said. I was about to say blur, but that's even better Disappear. That's exactly what it is we got to use. I say concise language is more important. That's something I'm trying to adopt in my mind. So I use muddled words. Language is more important. That's something I'm trying to adopt in my mind. So they use muddled words. I love that you use blur, because blur is ambiguous. You said disappear, that's exactly what. It's gone, it's shattered. And then then you know I, it's true, because you how you expect citizens to behave and yet this kind of stuff is promoted, and I don't want to just use the two ladies, I mean now let me use the two gentlemen is to make gender representation. James Comer, jamie Raskin Comer's a Republican, raskin's a Democrat.
Speaker 1:You may not be saying something new, but we don't always need new. We're declining so much. I think sometimes we need to mention, you know, traditional or tried examples, because sometimes we forget who we are. You already said that we lose now humanity. So sometimes old, traditional, established solutions, I think it's okay, you know, of course, I think the only judgment we have, if tried of course, is the effectiveness, then we can critique it All right, but we are just and I'm going to hone in but we are just stepping further away from humanity. I have seen it and you know it's sad.
Speaker 1:I use social media a lot just for information and just get good examples of what I want to talk about, but I don't, you know. Or entertainment, but I don't treat it as the most valuable, you know, like a news source. I still disagree with that. This is coming from Millennial, by the way. I like to do deeper research, look at articles and even, at times, see what TV is saying, just to compare how it's reported. Because, you know, social media does clips or sensationalism. That's how I got found by the two ladies, but the TV is more of the two gentlemen.
Speaker 1:Argument whatever to me, same basic problem, different people, and I think social media has played a lot to. You know, get us more combative, more angry, more irrational. Point our own echo chambers and just pretend I'm a republican, you're a democrat. If they have a slanted view of attacking you, saying that phyllis is a communist and I'm a rabid republicans. Oh, yeah, you see. Yeah, I knew it. That therapist is a communist. To hell with her. Yes, that confirmation? My point is is the confirmation bias is on steroids. Social media has that because the algorithm feeds about what you pay attention to, what you enjoy, so you have some influence in that. So to some extent the algorithm is your responsibility. If you love crazy, combative content, the algorithm is going to give you more right.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's part of when, you know, looking at the correlation between an individual family and the family of America and I call it the family of America because we're operating on family dynamics and a lot of them aren't so healthy and I just want to plug this in really quickly. There are millions of wonderful people in America doing fabulous things and I think that there lies some of our hope. There are millions of wonderful people in America doing fabulous things and I think that there lies some of our hope. There are people not necessarily at the top of the news, that you might not see them on social media, but there are people who are going into prisons and helping rehabilitate people and treat them like human beings, help them prepare to be released so that they're a different person when they go back out into society. There are people who are feeding the poor. There are people who are taking care of animals. There are people who are helping people grow gardens in the inner city. There are people doing amazing things and, even if it's not on a large scale, there are people who are just good neighbors, who are good to their children, who make amends when they stray. So I don't want to leave that out.
Speaker 2:It's not all bad, but what is destructive has a huge influence on the family of America as a whole, and I think so. Obviously, when you come to therapy, you don't focus on what's working, you focus on what's not working, and so that's a little bit of what we're doing, and I think, in the big picture of social media, it's partly our individual responsibility about how we use it and what we expose ourselves to. That's for sure. But in the big picture of the family of America, I think we're, and I think this is really the family of the human race, not just America. We have incredible potentials. Some of them are the potentials, you know, to clean up the climate and reduce emissions and build, you know, make better houses of worship or institutions of education. We have incredible potential, but we also have the potential for mass destruction, and I think we have to choose. What do we want to broadcast on social media? What kind of movies do we really want to make? Do we want to make movies about sadistic murders?
Speaker 2:Do we want to keep showing clips of dead bodies and people screaming at each other and dancing in the streets because some city got bombed? Do we really want this to be the food that we take in? Because it's all food it's emotional food, it's mental food, it's psychological food and for some of us it's even spiritual food. Is it good for us? Nobody wants to eat physical food that's rotten or contaminated or heavily laced with pesticides. We don't want to consume those things into our body. Could we look at the environment, the emotional, mental, behavioral environment we live in, and together decide not like censorship, but decide what's good for human being and do more and more of that Role model, more of that, speak more of that, advocate more of that, vote for more of that.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, that's absolutely right. I'm doing my part right now and I see the algorithm that one we have influence over. We consume crazy negative content. I'm going to give you more me. I sadly as to get topics of this podcast. I have to be complicated myself. Okay, I just want to get just the new stuff. I don't want the ultra violent and all that. That's not going to serve my purpose and that's just feeding the alcohol. I'm just going to call it the dark algorithms. Okay, eli likes those violence and craziness. Let's send him more. But then they just more and more clips of that.
Speaker 1:But I pay attention to more of the positive stuff and this is a good thing I've been doing joining organizations to restore conversation. I'm not a therapist. I'm not going to try to take Phyllis's job if you're thinking that, but if you feel so, there's a comment section. Feel free to express yourself. You're entitled to be wrong, but not correct. Okay, that's fine with me. But all of seriousness, I'm part of two organizations. I'm part of Unite New York to have more accessibility to Democrat voting and talk to people. That's more productive and I'm going to join even one of the calls pretty soon about how we could productively solve this is more systemic change.
Speaker 1:This is not third piece, it's not humanist, but I think this could address some of the human issues I would say at a more indirect level, because people don't feel like the government is working. They're hopeless, you know, and they don't. They feel like everything is rigged, everything is for the rich and the powerful. Yeah, the rich republic got some control, but they don't have complete control. What's one good example of that? Elon musk. When he trying to flip the seat in uh, where's wisconsin supreme court? Big failure. He threw a lot of money there, still lost. That's just to show you money is not a guaranteed victory. And you know what? I don't care if this is left or right doing it. The Democrats have done similar things too, thank God, because if that was the case, we'll be a much more screwed up country than what we are right now. If money was the guaranteed indicator of victor, does it boost, does it help? Yes, it does, but it's not the guaranteed indicator. It could be a metric, but it's not the guaranteed victor.
Speaker 1:So I? That's why I'm mentioning that as an example, and me, I'm even part of braver angels restoring conversation. I'm independent. People feel kind of comfortable talking to me as an independent. So you know some people try to see if I was a left or the right, so I really can't figure you out. I said that because I don't care about partisan loyalty. That's the problem. Partisan loyalty is the problem. You know.
Speaker 1:There's some things I'm gonna agree with republicans in there, some things I agree with the democrats, and you know, I you know and I just and sometimes I mesh the two together. Let's use immigration. Love the republicans if they only target at the violent criminal migrant only and it has to be proven just that portion. But I also love the democrat inclusivity of getting people in population, even help them get citizenship. If we mesh those two together, that'll be a step in the right direction just to fix this broken immigration system. So I'm in the center. If the migrant is violent, for example, I'm going to agree with Republicans. But I go case by case. If this migrant is scared, be wrongfully detained, yeah I'm going to join the Democrat in that particular case.
Speaker 1:My point is I don't care about partisan loyalty If I join either side. I'm missing the point. Far left perspective keep that border wide open. I'm against that. I misspoke the far left perspective. Keep that border wide open. I'm against that. The far right perspective is keep that border closed or let certain people in. I'm against that too.
Speaker 1:We have to be a welcoming nation. We have to come up with a better system for that. I just don't want you know I'm going to sound a little insensitive. We just don't want people. I don't want people with money, not just people, but I want people who are escaping. You know their conflict. Let America be a welcoming haven for those people too, those who don't got anything, who got I don't know a broken suitcase, ripped up clothes. Come to America to find a better life.
Speaker 1:Okay, and that does contribute to the population growth, because a lot of Americans are not making babies A lot of statistics will tell you that and the birth rate is so low that we will hit a decline if we didn't have migrants. So what's my point? They are a need and we cannot treat them as just a replaceable tool or luxury. We need to fix this. This should be a necessity, this problem, and a priority. That's what I'm going to say about that. I didn't expect to speak that much on that, but I think it needs to be brought across. And this is American therapy welcoming new people. Can it be complicated? Of course it is. Of course it is, but it's rewarding if we get it right.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, if I can add one piece to, that and again, this is big picture.
Speaker 2:There's no easy solution to what I'm going to say, but I think it really needs to be said, not just in America, but worldwide. Why do we have so many immigrants? I think we have to look at that. Why are so many people fleeing their homeland and their home? I wouldn't want to leave my home. I wouldn't want to leave my home. I wouldn't want to leave my country.
Speaker 2:I think people, so many, thousands and thousands of people are fleeing because they don't have food, because they're persecuted for their religion, or because there's a war going on in their country and there's no safe place to be in their home, or there's some kind of invasion going on in their country and it's not safe to be in their home, or there's some kind of invasion going on in their country and it's not safe to be in their home.
Speaker 2:So the real solution to immigration is to make it safe for people to stay where they are. That's the real solution and that is a worldwide problem. It's not something that the United States can cure, but certainly we could play a part in that, and we've played a part in disrupting some of the politics and political situations in other countries or gone after them for their resources and unsettled the safety and the well-being of the general populace. So we have to take responsibility for that and not just blame people because they're trying to get across the border to a safer place or a place where they think they might have more food. I think we have to look as really the family of humanity at what we're doing to each other, that there's so many immigrants around the world.
Speaker 1:That's a very good point. Now, I'm happy you mentioned that because you know, I don't normally think that I'm just thinking about, you know, migration here as maybe a choice A bit naive. But you do address the root problem. America has caused, and other developed nations have caused, instability on the more less privileged, less wealthy, less developed nations, because we want to install the leader that suits the American interests, british or whatever developed country fill in the blank interests and that caused a lot of destabilization. That's why a lot of them, and that's just basic. This is basic. This is not a partisan thing. This is global sociology thing. This is global sociology. This is basic geo. This is geopolitics 101. Okay, this is you know, this is very basic stuff. This is after this is you know. Some of you may say, oh, this is left wing, oh, region, region history, recent us history. There's plenty examples of the us interfering with latin american countries in particular, multiple of them. Okay, it's been doing that for centuries.
Speaker 2:And you know something that you said is really important when you said learn our history, because that is a very important part of therapy. We have to know what happened to us, what were the conditions we grew up in in our families, what were the values, what were the good things that happened and the strengths we developed, and what were the traumas we survived and suffered that maybe have shaped us in some dysfunctional ways. For me, the best therapy does some investigation of where we came from and how we adapted to what we experienced growing up. And it's not different from a country. We need to know our history. We need to know we're a country of immigrants.
Speaker 2:My family is all immigrants and most people are, if they trace themselves back far enough. Unless you're a Native American. You came here from somewhere, and why? No? Certainly there were some people who came to you know, make their fortune, but there were many people fleeing war and poverty and persecution and starvation and we bring that trauma with us and then we forget that we came from that and we're looking at other people like, go, go home, what's wrong with you when they're fleeing the same thing?
Speaker 1:I would like to ask a few more things. You know, even you know slave trades. You know has even moved people and of course that's by force. But that and and the interesting dynamic I've seen, because I know a couple of not documented migrants and I know those who got their papers. They're even fighting each other. So I did the right thing you need to get out. This is a couple of not documented migrants and I know those who got their papers. They're either fighting each other. So I did the right thing you need to get out.
Speaker 1:This is a couple of migrants arguing with each other. So no, you need to get out. You make you making me look bad. You make it out, guy, look bad. I've heard kinds of arguments and they say oh, you know, and a bunch of profanities were thrown in multiple languages and all of that, and also even migrants are fighting each other. I would say the documented versus the not documented because of that and I just say well, I don't really have a say, even though I was born here, but if I trace back, I'm an immigrant too.
Speaker 1:Spoiler alert you know, and I'm sure I'm, yeah, a vast majority of us, I'll say 99.99 percent of us, unless you have um native american trace roots. But again, we we're so mixed we we're. You know, I I'm sure a few of us got, I know I got native american um some trace in me there, but I'm still a migrant, because you don't know why, because it takes a migrant to make me and I got mixed with a bunch of people. And here I am fast forward if I get into the details.
Speaker 2:So you know a good I. Why psychology is so important, why addressing our collective mental health is so important is, you know, you can have a fight about who belongs here and who doesn't, but that's just the surface of the issue. You know getting on boats where half of them drown, but it's better to take that chance and stay where they are. Can we even take a minute to imagine what they must be fleeing for them to risk their lives in that way? So I think part of the lens of psychology is when you look at the origins of people's behavior, you can start to grow some compassion. And when you grow some compassion you can start to grow some compassion. And when you grow some compassion, then you're more likely to want to look for a real solution and not a band-aid or a one-size-fits-all build a wall or you know whatever it is. Those are not solutions.
Speaker 1:No, they're not. And look, I'm going to say this again. I've said this several times Our immigration system is broken Capitalize that word Broken and it's been like that. You know, of course, even if we adjust, that that's only one part of the problem. So, just so you know, not to actually just to even make it congruent with your point, because you already set the root cause the instability in their homeland. Sometimes it's caused by not just developed nations, sometimes it's even within the countries um, but that's getting too deep to the histories of all that but generally speaking, even sometimes it's intra-conflict within certain nations. But let's just be honest, that's so a good chunk of it has to deal with developed nations putting their foothold and just picking leaders that support their interests as opposed to their, the native populist interests, and that causes instability. I need to emphasize that. You know and I I'll say a good country that that continues to have instability, even intra to some degree, even though we we keep meddling with it. I'll say haiti is a very good example of massive instability and a lot of them had to come here not too long ago. I'm not surprised that's continuing. Well, actually, I'll say that's been less because we have a current leadership who is about closing the darn border.
Speaker 1:So the migrants are generally speaking I can't speak for every single one of them are less encouraged to come here, because they're watching too. They got access to smartphones. They may not come from this rich country, but I can tell you one thing Migrants are resourceful. They are resourceful with little they have, generally speaking, and sadly they take these risks to come. Like you said, the boat sometimes long walks to uninhabitable places like a desert. Okay, I mean, I was watching him. You know this is on. Of course, I was looking about how much migrants is coming in during biden's presidency. I'm not a big fan of both.
Speaker 1:For the camps, like I said, I'm an eye the other day, but I've seen so many of them come in. Some drown in the boats, some were even killed because they encountered the wrong person and some even relied on smugglers to get in. I mean, what are they supposed to do? Imagine just having what? Only just one set of clothes. Some have children. Some even gave their children so the children could make it there, and some parents even sacrificed their lives, which is I can, can't imagine that. I just can't fathom that. So much, putting so much danger, forget so much danger in so many levels. Look, most of us americans can't even comprehend that because we haven't been through I haven't been through that, so I'm not going to pretend to fully understand, but just seeing that I'm just shocked. What they have to go through. Some get shot and killed along the way. You know there's so much. And then those who get here they are, are they really fortunate? Maybe, but and then sadly but they lost so much along the way, so should they have others? And some lost their friends. It's, it's sad, it's just really, really sad.
Speaker 1:We need to come with a better way and just and this is my big criticism to the united states just stop. Just become more of a partner and in our global standing we will be so much better. Do more partnerships instead of I'm going to use this word authoritarianism or dictator or dictatorship by installing someone who's just going to support the US. This is why, to some degree, a lot of countries don't even like us. They don't want to trust us because of that. I'm not saying they're right too. They got their own set of issues. I'm only speaking to America. I want America to be held accountable. So we could be, hopefully, because we're losing our standing in the global stage. On some of the metrics. I got to be honest. I love America, but I'm also honest as well. I'm a tough lumber. We're losing our standing in some states.
Speaker 1:You already mentioned trade wars that damaged relations with a lot of countries across the board. So that's more my criticism of Trump. Like Biden, I think open border I'm against that. Trump with the trade war, I'm definitely against that. I think that was unnecessary chaos. Maybe except for a few countries I would agree with. But generally speaking, to do that with canada, that's how good neighbor, how we got state relations with them.
Speaker 1:And well, we already well, us always have a complicated relationship with mexico. So I'm not sure that was going to be improved or not. I didn't expect anything out of that, but we damaged relations with Canada. So we had a stable standard. But even the stupid trade war but this is what you know led by people who are how can I put this delicately? They have on, they got wounds that have been addressed. I'm just going to say it like that. I normally come up with nasty names and be super critical, but I'm trying to be a little nice here. I'm trying to be the mature one here and be a little more accountable. Easier said than done, believe me.
Speaker 2:And that's where I think psychological understanding really needs to be spread across our whole population, because one of the things you see being a therapist is that inside the perpetrator is a victim that didn't get healed. For the most part that's very much true. That inside the people who do the worst things to other people is a hurting part of themselves that is coming out as rage or that's role modeling the abusive behaviors that they experience or witness themselves. Or they were so deprived of love and safe belonging that the ways they've defended themselves have become aggressive toward other people or hurtful toward other people, or they never internalize the empathy that we need for one another to want to get along, and so they don't have it. And these are psychological, emotional wounds that you know sometimes we don't know how to address.
Speaker 2:But if you take the bully kid on the playground, that's not a happy child. That's a child that's looking for power in an inappropriate way. And the kids that rally around the bully on the playground and support the bully are usually equally dis. Just know that. You know that inside the perpetrator isn't unhealed victim. That doesn't mean they get a free pass because they're hurting, but it means we have to direct our resources and our attention and our intelligence toward actually healing our human relations. So we don't keep producing perpetrators. That's really what it's about. How do we break this cycle? We don't keep producing perpetrators. That's really what it's about. How do we break this cycle? We don't break it with war. You don't break it with violence.
Speaker 1:You don't break it with hatred well, let me list the two main enemies of this episode the military industrial complex and those who run the prison systems. They say no, no, some of them are going to have a paranoid attitude because they care about profits over people. So if you attack us on that, I'm going to know you support the prison system and slash or a military industrial complex. They don't like this conversation, you know what? So be it, because the way it's running, look we, we, we can't. I think we have a point that we could just, I think, barely keep up with interest payments, and if we just keep adding a little more debt, forget it, the economic collapse is coming. So this current system we have is unsustainable. It needs change as soon as possible.
Speaker 1:I think addressing these wounds have less people in prison, we'll definitely do that. Going to wars a heck of a lot less will definitely improve the economy, because wars are very expensive. They're just very, very expensive. I'm not an economic genius, but they are very expensive, especially with all these middle people that are with the military industrial complex. They are whoo. The money they make from these wars is just astronomical. It is astronomical and it's wrong because this is a prophet of death, suffering and destruction. Like you said, we've got nuclear weapons. If all nine countries that own nuclear weapons shoot nuclear weapons around the globe, we're wiped out. We're done.
Speaker 2:That's it Right so then we have to ask ourselves why are we putting our tax dollars into the creation of what could destroy us? If somebody was doing that in their home, if they were building a bomb in their basement that could blow the house up, we'd say they were mentally ill. We'd say they need help, they need restraint, they need redirection. They really need something desperately. And yet we're doing that as nations.
Speaker 1:So I think you point out something that's very important Morale. I think you just point out a double standard on morality in productive citizens. The government acts more like a mad scientist, mentally ill, but yet they expect the populace to be role models. That's a major disconnect right there.
Speaker 2:That's a major disconnect, and I think another way of saying that is that we condone things to be done to other people, and especially other people that we never have to interact with. You know over there or over across the ocean that we would never want anyone to do to us and we would be horrified if it was done to us, and yet we allow it and we even legislate for it.
Speaker 1:Let's just pretend. Forget Israel and Iran, for example. Imagine just US and Canada had that kind of conflict. Just let's switch places. Just imagine that we're shooting bombs at Canada, canada shoots bombs at us, the. The death rate will be astronomical. If you get an economic, economic interest, both countries are will go down the tubes. Yeah, and it'll be. It'll be a war zone. You know, have you seen those apocalyptic, those waste? You know future movies? So that'll be the aftermath of that. Then we'd be back to more barbaric, savage, tribalistic species.
Speaker 1:That only goes with people that agrees with the ideology. The other group of people that got a different ideology, well, they're the enemy already. But they got the resources that we want. So they're the enemy because they are the obstacle to our resources. You know great. So do we want that? Let's imagine that the US is Israel, canada is Iraq. So do we want that? Let's imagine that the US is Israel, canada is Iraq. They do what they've done. They say a ceasefire has happened. I'll see how long that lasts, especially two countries that hate each other. They're super militant. They can't stand each other. I don't have much hope. But let's just say yeah, trust me, we will not want war.
Speaker 2:People who cheer for war are psychotic and they've never been in war themselves I think that's probably true and I think a lot of the people that initiate war are not in the war. They don't suffer the consequences of their own decisions yeah, so that's something to think about.
Speaker 1:Put a comment section how will you feel if the US and Canada had the same exact conflict as Israel and Iran?
Speaker 2:So let me just emphasize everything we can each do in our own lives. You don't have to have a huge sphere of influence. Most people don't. Most people have their family, their small group of friends around them, maybe their workspace or their church or their school or some organization they belong to. Most people are not on a national level of influence, but whatever your sphere of influence is, we can all make a difference. We can all be more loving, we can all be more kind, we can all be more generous. We can all be more celebratory of our diversity and we can all be better listeners. We can all be more celebratory of our diversity and we can all be better listeners. We can all be the ones to initiate repairing relationships, making peace, and know that everything we each do does ripple out.
Speaker 1:I think that's a very profound message. It's about how minor your sphere of influence is. That's true. If you change one life, I mean, what will you do? This is if you change one life. I mean, what will you do? For this is, you know, this is a good comment section I take. What will you do, I don't care how big your influence is? What will you do to do better, to prevent war, you know, to do conflict resolution, so to speak?
Speaker 1:how minor it is right, I'll be a comment section for you right there. What will you do? If you're brave enough, type it down, and this is one of the cases where I don't mind long and thought out responses.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me share a story, because I grew up, like most of us, with somebody's right and somebody's wrong, and you have to prove your point. You know, not with violence, I didn't grow up with that, but many people do. But basically, somebody's right, somebody's wrong, and I'm going to hold to my point until you agree with me, and you're probably going to hold to your point until I agree with you. And if you've hurt my feelings or, you know, angered me in some way, then I'm going to make sure.
Speaker 2:I had a good friend who worked at the agency, and I don't remember what happened, it was so long ago but I did something or said something that bothered him, and he asked me if we could have a conversation. We sat down together. He did not attack me, he did not blame me, he did not shame me, he just told me whatever it was that was bothering him, and then he asked me what my take on the situation was. So he presented his point of view and then he was open to hear whatever my feedback or perception was. And again, I don't remember any of the details. I just remember that I had never had that conversation with anyone in my entire life and it changed my life.
Speaker 2:I'll never forget that moment. He was a true friend and he wanted it to be repaired and of course it was in that conversation. Whatever it was, it wasn't any major infraction, but he wanted our friendship to be repaired and to be better and he was committed to that in the conversation he had with me and so of course it brought that out of me. I didn't need to make him wrong or be right. I just wanted to hear him own, whatever it was, and reconnect. And that's what we did, and it really was life-changing to experience that with another human being and I think many people have never had that experience.
Speaker 1:To some of you they may sound so simple, but you know what it's. Just like she said. A lot of people say I'm right, you're wrong. If my feelings is hurt, you're extra wrong. I'm going to get you back Right Because I already feel attacked.
Speaker 1:That's the normal dynamic of many people. Doesn't matter your skin color, your socioeconomics, it's just. We haven't been taught to communicate in a, you know, in a productive manner. It's just. As long as I get what I want, that's all I care about right. If you suffer, that's your problem. As long as I'm good, I don't care how you're doing. I'm probably being blunt about it, probably overly too blunt, but you get the point. If people just want what they want, then they go on about their day. Sometimes they don't. So just that. He was just trying to understand what went off. He was really looking forward to, not looking forward to. His intent, obviously, was to repair the relationship, because if it was just like a normal conversation, I saw first. You know what you said was so stupid. So it was so stupid. I don't like you no more. I think you are a sexist because you just attacked all men. I didn't get to your point of view and all that I don't want to talk to you.
Speaker 1:I think you're a radical feminist. I should no longer exist. I feel this is very hurt. I'm on attack mode. I didn't hear everything, but I just heard a little snippet. And I went on attack mode because I'm already feeling offended, even though I'm safe. I mean, objectively speaking, I'm safe, but my feelings were hurt, so I feel like I'm in danger. I perceive danger, even though it's a safe environment. But since I just heard something that triggered me keyword right Instead of just trying to be understanding or get at least the general picture of what's going on, I just heard a snippet and I lost it.
Speaker 1:She said oh, men are like dogs, dirty and simple. So what? This bleep doesn't know what she's talking about. I'm going to tell her straight off about, you know. And then, of course, it creates all kinds of problems and dysfunction that that could have been easily resolved and avoided. Let's just be honest, we're silly. Example I would. I want to get triggered. I just I'm just my real reaction back Hmm, interesting, I think. I think the whole picture. So that, here, that whole thing. No, you know, hmm, interesting, I think the whole picture. Did I hear that whole thing? No, you know what I would do. I would just drop it because I dig into it and then sometimes, you know, I think we have to be accountable, like you said, to our own reactions and feelings.
Speaker 2:So that's just my point.
Speaker 1:We lack accountability. Social media promotes victimhood, victimhood, victimhood, victimhood. It's your fault, never my fault. Oh no, that's not religious my fault, you crazy. It's your fault. That's sadly the normal dynamic.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, one of the teachers that I had in graduate school and this is probably a well-known statement, I don't know but when he was talking about couple therapy and he was talking about, you know, the couples come in, like I said, they want to prove each other wrong instead of but what they really want. They overtly look like they want to prove each other wrong, but really what they really want is to come back into love. They want to come back into feeling good with each other and feeling loved and cared for and safe and cooperative. And he said what he often says to couples is do you want to be right or do you want to have a relationship? And I think, as a country and as a species, we are really facing that question Do we want to be right or do we want to actually survive here? Because if we don't have a relationship with one another and it keeps deteriorating, we really are at great risk.
Speaker 1:You know this may sound cheesy or even minor, but you know what? We keep putting this aside. Look what has manifested Sociopaths happy trigger people, combative people, irrational people, closed-minded people who just want to do what they want. Self-interest people who look out for themselves. Screw the we, I'm looking out for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the we is where we're going, because I think, you know, in a happy family, for instance, there's a balance between what's good for the family and what's good for each individual, not what's good for one individual, but what's good for everybody. And I think that's where we're headed in the evolution of our consciousness as a human race. If we're willing to go there, if we get that, it's actually a matter of life and death to go there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we need to do a national state, even local campaigns on that, because, look these people, we are paying them throughout tax dollars. We need to hold their feet to the fire, to be more responsible, instead of just looking at them as a team sport player or as a no, no, no. You see, that's the problem we treat politics as a team sport or no. That that's a problem. That's a problem. Hold them, hold them, hold their feet to the fire, not literally, because that's violent, right, figuratively speaking. Hold, hold them accountable. That's what I'm really trying to say. And if they're not doing their job, the people need to stop being lazy, and the voter base, you lazy, especially in the local and state elections.
Speaker 1:Federal, I would say, you put minimum effort, minimum acceptable effort. But we can even do better there To vote, get your congressperson out. I don't care about Democrat, republican, I really don't. They're not doing their job. Get them out. Get them out. They're too corrupt, get them out. Get them out. That're too corrupt, get them out, get them out. That's what you could do. Okay, I don't care if it's House representatives, senate, local, state races, especially local and state races, because if you want to, just at least try to look out locally, because state and local laws affect you even more than federal laws. But the voter base just think just go federal A lot more to federal. Nope, you got to pay attention. Ideally you should pay attention to many, many elections. I know you don't have that kind of time, but you should pay attention more to local and state elections because those laws are going to impact you much quicker and much more profoundly than even federal laws.
Speaker 1:Yeah, federal laws impact us, but not as much Local and state laws impact us directly. Okay, and that's all I'm going to say Just hold your Congress people to the fire and if they're not having productive conversations, if they're just doing things for social media clicks, get them out. Stop putting them in office. I don't care what party they're in, just get them out. So anything else you want to add before we do the shameless plug-in?
Speaker 2:No, that was great. Thank you so much for having me here.
Speaker 1:To have this conversation. Oh yeah, no problem, you were great the last time and I just think we need more of this. I'm just doing my little part To promote more productive, you know, and try to heal this country.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Show that lovely book. I think you have it on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think maybe I'll move it over. It's American Therapy. Can you see it better now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I can see it better now I'll just hold it here.
Speaker 2:It's American Therapy, A New Approach to Hope and Healing for a Nation in Crisis. It's available from all major booksellers. You can get it in paperback, you can get it in Kindle. You can visit my website and see some other offerings that I have and read more about what's in the book. You can contact me. You can get on my mailing list and get my newsletters. I'm on all the social media LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook so you can follow me.
Speaker 2:I try to write really timely messages in a concise way to update some of the things that I'm talking about in my book. I've just created a whole course based on my book that you can use to apply in your own life and that's part of a book funnel that you can access on my website soon. I don't think it's on there right now, but it will be site soon. I don't think it's on there right now, but it will be. And yeah, and just, you can just contact me on my website if you have any other questions. And again, thank you so much for having me. I just really appreciate being here and having this conversation with you today and thank you for the great work you're doing to do, each of us trying to do our part to heal this country and bring us back together in some kind of loving cooperation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a big gap for me. I said wait a minute, I'll talk about it, but I'm not doing the action. See, self-reflection does work. Aha, that's why I joined these organizations. Brave Angels, just try to get people together or at least have a constructive disagreement, but still maintain you know, conversations and all that, and learn from each other. I'm not changing minds.
Speaker 1:I'm just trying to find what's the collective good that's Braver Angels and, of course, why it's more about changing election laws on a state level. Especially me as an independent, I have a problem that I cannot vote in a primary right, I know I missed out on the primary, but I could vote a general election.
Speaker 1:So that needs to change. For independence, I'll be either a democrat or republican, and so I'm not with either of those. Two foolish parties are causing this. You know this damage, this toxicity. If you will, you know that's what I'm going to say about that. I'll put those linked in the description. But Unite NY, you have to be a New York resident. The Braver Angels is nationwide. They have charters in almost 50 states. It started not that long ago. I think they're about to hit their 10th year pretty soon. It's growing. It's growing because more people want to have conversations.
Speaker 1:So that's the positive work, the one that the news, even the social medias, don't want to cover. Well, social means. You got algorithms, so watch positive stuff, cable tv well, flip the channels, okay, flip the chairs or something more positive. But you know, because that population is still um significant right now. That's more the boomer and the gen x and even certain millennials. I'm gonna I don't know act unquote, elderly, I don't get it. Whatever.
Speaker 1:Me, I just do a fine balance Because I need to know what's going on, and so I'm just trying to do the action. You know I like you know, it's easy to talk. You got to do the actions. Well, I could say all those good things, but if you catch me outside punching someone, I'm a hypocrite. I'm a hypocrite, I'm exposed, right. So I try to listen to this host. He just knocked the guy out. You'll be right. I will argue with you. But you're correct.
Speaker 1:I started giving awards for the shortest intro. Shameless plugins. I got to start coming up with awards. I don't know if I'm going to do that next season. Make it official. Maybe I should do that. Make it more fun. It's probably guest-oriented at this point, but whatever, all right, enough of my crazy yammering Seamus, plug it for my show. So if you have extra cash you don't know what to do, send it to this guy right here. $3 a month. You have access to my old embarrassing prototype unfiltered podcast where I didn't know what the heck I was doing. You want to make fun of me, get audio clips of me? Go right ahead, do that, whatever.
Speaker 1:Or you're going to start getting exclusive content in the future. I haven't thought about that yet. What exclusive content will that be like? I don't want something that. Ask me something real, specific, real. You know something that I think that's exclusive, appropriate, but so far, yeah, you will Unlock the first 140 episodes and this is before I started doing video Simpler times as we locked up, cooped up because of the pandemic, but that's all you're gonna get so far.
Speaker 1:And then there's higher tiers and you already have your own emotes To support and you get a shoutout. That's all you're going to get so far. And then there's higher tiers and you already have your own emotes to support and that's all you get and you get a shout out. Now, that would be a shout out. So that's space tier, low tier stuff.
Speaker 1:But I got to find some. I got to find some some good content. For the exclusive people like the real, dedicated, the real I got to find something appropriate. I was good.
Speaker 1:So, and for the normal youtube rumble stuff like comment, subscribe, share, share to people who need to hear this, and for the apple podcast listeners I don't care about you spotify, so leave the review there. I'm ignoring you. Leave a constructive review. It could be what you don't like about it, what you like about it, be specific, what made the episode great, what made it not so great, and just rate the stars based on on that. On critique, it's a four star, five star. I already got one star from invisible hater, so at least I got some authenticity there. Thank you, but I do.
Speaker 1:But I do pay attention more to constructive, you know criticism and even praise. They'll just say I'm great or I suck. Just be specific. Why was it great? Why wasn't bad that? I'll pay attention to so and join pod match as well. I'll give you a unique link as well. It's a great. It's a great, great, great tool. If you hate the back and forth chain emails I've done it with some guests. I didn't shame them. Some turn to out to be great, some turned out to be crap. But the chain emails get annoying to me and sometimes I don't have time to sift through all of that. Pie Match is a great way for you to be organized and you can even try it for free. So there you go. If you end up hating the product, you can just leave.
Speaker 2:Give it a shot.
Speaker 1:Okay, if you end up loving any more features, put your money where your mouth is. That's all I can say about that. So all right, once you have reached the end of this visual or audio journey, you have a blessed day, afternoon or night. Bye.
