313- Can Stories Heal A Divided Nation? with Teri M Brown

We sit with author and podcaster Teri M. Brown to explore how fiction builds empathy, why Ukraine’s past matters to the present, and how to argue without hate. We challenge media echo chambers, defend real free speech, and make the case for reading widely as an antidote to doomscrolling.

• the meaning behind Sunflowers Beneath the Snow
• 2014 as the overlooked precursor to 2022
• focusing on people over punditry
• correcting errors and valuing accuracy
• free speech versus threats and incitement
• media bias in a 24-hour news cycle
• reading fiction to expand empathy
• labels versus listening and real debate
• civics and argument skills in schools
• independent thinking and mixed positions
• compromise as a civic habit, not a weakness

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Follow Teri M Brown

Her website

https://www.terimbrown.com/

Her Promoted Book

https://www.terimbrown.com/10-little-rules-dba.html

YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaQ6p-EOSGd1tEeWijQSl9A

Twitter

https://www.facebook.com/TeriMBrownAuthor

Pinterest

https://www.pinterest.com/terimbrownauthor/

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/terimbrown_author

Linkedin

https://www.linkedin.com/in/TeriMBrown/

TikTok

https://www.tiktok.com/@terimbrown_author

Episode 288

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2308824/episodes/17492234-288-the-tandem-journey-finding-adventure-beyond-your-box-with-teri-m-brown

Ground News

https://ground.news/

Chapters

• 0:12 Welcome Back, Terry M. Brown
• 2:06 A Rocky Path To Loving Reading
• 3:46 Terry’s Work And New Podcasts
• 9:02 Naming Sunflowers Beneath The Snow
• 13:22 Ukraine’s History And 2014 Context
• 19:18 Focus On People Over Politics
• 23:38 Free Speech, Lines, And Consequences
• 31:28 Civility, Labels, And Listening
• 43:40 Media Bias And The 24-Hour Cycle
• 50:08 Empathy Through Fiction And Reading
• 56:48 Compromise, Debate, And Education
• 1:04:40 Good News, Bad News, And Humanity
• 1:11:52 Independent Thinking And Gray Areas
• 1:22:00 Writing Truth Inside Fiction
• 1:29:08 Where To Find Terry And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:12

Welcome everyone to politically high tech with your host, Elias. I have a great returning guest here. I know the new guest streak has been destroyed. Blame me. Oh well. You know, some of the greats gotta come back. And I actually want I brought her through executive decision. Of course, she has to agree. You know, it's not like me pointing to the gun to the screen and forcing her to succumb. I don't operate like that. I know I talk tough. So let's get straight into it. So we have this lovely author here. Remember about those 10 little rules? If not, for whatever reason, I will accept whatever excuse. But, you know, and this here, the weapon of mass distraction here. This smartphone, you've been doom scrolling, forgetting to do your call to action here, alright? I I will forgive you only one time. But for some reason I have it a third time, and if I hear ignorance, either from the 10 little rules and this book we're gonna talk about, yeah, then I'm gonna get out your throat. I said, come on. Now you're just fooling around here. You're being childish, all right? And I have a good idea. You know, I have some demographics in my audience. You're professional, you're smart. So if you stoop down to this level, I am truly shocked. But if you're some random commentator, I don't expect anything out of you. I I almost have no hope at this point. But you know, you can prove me wrong. I've been wrong before, willing to admit that. But enough of this random monologue. Okay, let me stop this whole monologue. Let's just welcome back Terry M. Brown. A you know, a great author, in my opinion. And you know what? I I have an on and off interest with literacy. And I gotta say, it was mostly thanks to my mom, even though I was such a pain in the neck. I hate reading as a kid. If I say I love reading as a kid, I'm lying to you. I gave her such a hard time with that. I was more, you know, your typical boy, action-oriented, games, eating. Oh god, that's boring. Why don't we be some stuffy thing that's just collections of paper and all that? Alright. That's funny. Until I hit my teenage years, literacy decided to grow on me, especially when a certain someone taught it in a way that is interesting. And I think that's a callous for some people. I was just like, you gotta read, gotta finish homework. And then my English teacher's like, he just gave me this somewhat salesy uh education pitch that, oh, it's unlike unlocking the new world. Use the power of visualization. Uh, trust me, I was skeptical. I said, okay, whatever. I tried it. Three seconds later, I started loving reading. It just that that thing just shifted. My taste for literature, it actually just grew ever since. I read more books than ever. The older I get, the more books I read. So there's a positive correlation. But as a kid, grade school, I hated. I was anti-reading. Anti-reading. I I would I would be willing to support even burning the books if if if things didn't change that trajectory. All right. But you know, we all know that's bad. That's destroying knowledge and literacy, and it's gonna turn us to cave people again. All right, so let's welcome her back, Terry M. Brown, and I'm ready stalling with my little personal story. So this is the only time I'm gonna be slightly strict. It's strict in quotes. What do you want the audience and the listeners to know about you?

SPEAKER_00: 3:46

Yeah, well, I'm like you said, I'm an author. I've written three historical fiction novels. I wrote the memoir that I was on your show before, The Ten Little Rules for Double Budded Adventure, where it talks about me riding across the United States on a tandem bicycle. I've written a children's story, hopefully to help kids who are young decide that they do like reading after all, instead of making them go through that period of time where they don't like reading. And then I'm currently working on other works right now. I'm also a podcast host. I have online for authors where I talk to authors. I am a co-host with the Terry and Edith show, where I talk with Edith, who is also an author, and we just talk all things books. And I'm starting a new, what I call bite-sized podcast called The Book Hook, where you can hear the first paragraph of a book uh read by the author, and then make a decision as to whether or not you'd be willing to pick up that book.

SPEAKER_03: 4:38

So that's kind of what I do. That's who I am. This episode is for you. And new bookworms. You know, you don't know it yet, you fought it just like me. I got converted, obviously. When I was say I was yeah, high school, I started getting converted. Middle school, I was iffy about it. I'll just read so the adults could shut up. And then eventually I just started reading. Alright, that's my very brief version of my literacy journey. It's just been growing ever since. And you know, I'm happy that I'm actually of reading. So you miss out if you don't. That's all I'm gonna say about that. That's true. You know, I'm not just saying that because she's here. Believe me, if you want to know what kind of books I read, I get for free or some I bought. Oof, I got my own little mini library. Um, once I start fixing certain things up, you can see mini library of host books, you know, books from other guests, or even books that I bought, books I read. It's it's it it widely varies about the subject it is not just even I love non-fiction more, but I don't mind some fiction. Fiction could be interesting, but uh, you know, and it's it's something that I think you should get into. But you know, if you you know, there is an easy way out, you know, you wanted the book to be re-read at you like you're a child. There's can so there's that. I will c that's a compromise I'm willing to settle. But if you're gonna replace it with this weapons of mass distraction here, uh no, that's not that's not literacy. You're just you're just doom scrolling, you're just reading just for your own personal benefit, you know, using slangs, and trust me, I know some of the Gen Z slams say 80% of it. Skippity toilet, I'll never understand. You keep that slang. No, that's that's too much for me. I know the Riz, I know mid, I know main character energy, that kind of stuff, but don't talk to me on Skippity Toilet. Just alright, so and definitely don't say that to the older folks. Yeah, they look at you weird, like you're on something. I will say they're on something, they're on deep copium. You gotta get with the times. You know, not everyone's gonna adopt to that slang, and they to be honest, they don't want to. They want to use that code just to be secretive, creative, and smart. And guess what? You took some of the for the millennials, my generation, so it's not a huge gap for millennials, but for the other generations, they are. But you know what's funny? You could hate me because I educate them on what it really means. And trust me, they look they love me friends. Oh, you're an ally for the older generations. In some instances, I am. When it comes to respect, you think you're such an arrogant little little thing that think you're just better than older folk just because you're a young thing. You do got advantages, but you're not better. It's called wisdom. Learn it, okay? And we gotta restore respect for older generations. It's been declining in this country. So that's my little advocacy. We know we we do terrible. We do terrible. Other co other countries got it right. Asian countries, African countries, I mean Eastern European countries, they got that right. Yeah. Here we just shut up, grandma. We're gonna dump you in a nursing home. Yeah, okay. So, all right, enough about me, my first world issues, but I but sadly that's that's that's a serious one I would say right there, because they get treated like dirt, they get treated like they're see now. Me, it takes a lot for me just to get real at say with uh with the elder, and I think that's why, you know, I've been you know more sympathetic, because you know, they taught me I'd be something don't get me wrong as a kid. I was pretty respectful, but there was times I went out of line and I just call them the fossils and dinosaurs and all that kind of stuff. But not say I'm not perfect, not perfect, but I've learned and grown from it. That's all I'm gonna say. So I feel like I'm I'm gonna have enough authority and credentials just to speak on that because they don't get they don't get treated well. I'm seeing it just all over, all over. These people, you know, they got wisdom to offer, you know. And some went through historical events that you could talk to. You know, they they could be source of history. Absolutely. You know, so that's all I'm gonna say about that. All right, I feel like I'm talking too much. Let's get to the book. Let's get to the book. All right. All right. About this lovely book, and I love the title about it. I think it'll be so fixed. Sunflowers beneath the snow. I mean, we know Ukraine, it's very cold. Right. There's the snow part. Sunflowers is that symbol of hope and the sunflower is the national flower.

SPEAKER_00: 9:22

So it is Ukraine's national flower. And when I was trying to come up with the title, and I hate coming up with titles, those are they're so hard for me. You write this book, you have 82,000 words, and they say, okay, sum it up with one to five words in a title. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. So it was really, and this was my first book, and it was just really difficult to come up with a title. But we started thinking about themes. And one of the themes in this book is is that idea of resilience and of like waiting until the time is right, but when it's right, being able to like spring forth and show who you really are. And so that made me think of my favorite flower in the world is a daffodil. And one of the reasons is when I lived up north and it would snow, daffodils would be one of the first flowers to pop out. And when they would pop out, it was like, here comes spring. And even if it snowed again and dumped on top of that flower, I knew in my heart of hearts that it just was a little while longer and we were going to see the beautiful spring and and and everything was going to start getting warmer. But it didn't make any sense to say daffodils beneath the snow. It just, you know, and then I wanted it to be like maybe a first flower, but sunflowers are not first flowers. They they wait until much later. And then it hit me that even though they're waiting, they're there. You know, they're they're underneath there, the seeds are there, they're ready to go. And I thought that's the way these women in this story are, and that's the way Ukraine was as it suffered through the final stages of being part of communist the USSR. And so when that thought came to me, and it was like sunflowers beneath the snow. Oh my gosh, that is it. And so finally we had a title, which is great because I was certain the book was going to come out and be called You Name It by Terry M. Brown.

SPEAKER_03: 11:17

I think I would have been very you named me. What the heck? Let's come up from a so-called author. No, but listen, that's I mean, I could tell you thought it out really well was difficult. I mean, just I'm sure I doubt I could come up with something as good as that. Well, I'm gonna say, I don't know, Russia wins, evil always triumph, you know. Oof, bad title, of course. And I'm sure some of you coming, you political people just can't wait, just uh roast me right there. Oh my god, I'm a Russian apologist. Hell no. Russia invaded Ukraine. Yes, they most certainly did. That's a fact. I'm not gonna even debate it. It's a fact. Look, we go to the background why why they did it, whether you think I'm justifying it or not, and this is why I'm gonna put on my political hat. Attack me for the political stuff, by the way, okay? Not the author. She's innocent, she's just writing a f historical fiction. Fiction. So it is history, real history, mixed with fake fantasy. Right. So don't attack her. And if you do, you're a fool. And you know, I just hope YouTube censors you. But I don't, you know, especially if it's vile vicious. Yeah, yeah, you you earn that censorship. You you earn it. You earn it. But rumble, uh, when it gets there, I'll see how bad it is. If it's just stupid and personal vile, then yeah, then I'll take it down. I don't exercise that rule a lot, but if it's unwarranted, then yeah, I'm gonna use cancel comment, not cancel cultures, cancel comments. Because it's it's it's just stupid. It's really dumb. I mean, you could be constructive and say, I think it would be better if you did ABC. Right. Instead of you're stupid, your family's dumb. Yeah, that's real negative for Texas. And and this is a hot bun issue, so I know how emotional workup could be. It's sadly we're still in this heated conflict and lots of lives have been lost.

SPEAKER_00: 13:22

What's really crazy is when I wrote this book, so it came out in January of 22, which was a month before this current Ukrainian crisis. And I had, of course, no idea that this crisis was coming. I mean, you know, you don't you don't write a book and go through everything that you go through and then have that all planned out. That's just not the way it works. But what I feel that the book has done is it's helped people, when you read it, you learn a lot about Ukraine and Russia and the relationship that they've had over generations. You know, what's going on today is not new. This particular conflict is new, but the conflicts between these two nations, their borders have always been very fluid as to who who owns what piece. And Russia has always wanted some of the ports that that Ukraine has. And there's always been this back and forth. And so this is this isn't new. And I think for people who don't really understand the background, Sunflowers Beneath the Snow, it it takes a very neutral stance in terms of the history. The history is the history. This is what happened. And I just try to show that that Russia and Ukraine, it's not like they've been friendly, and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Russia invades Ukraine. It's it's this has been an ongoing issue. In fact, a lot of people don't remember, but in 2014, Russia invaded Ukraine, right? And that's where the idea for this story came from, is because I have a friend who's Ukrainian who was in the United States when that happened and could not get home because of that invasion in 2014. And if it hadn't been for her, I don't know that I would have known it was going on.

SPEAKER_03: 15:12

Uh yeah, well, there was the mainstream media that actually talked about it and but not for long.

SPEAKER_00: 15:19

It was it was kind of a flash in the pan. You heard about it, and then it was kind of over, except that it was never really over because it's not like Russia invaded and then they went back home. And then it's it's like in 2014 they decided, see, we got away with it, and then I think it maybe emboldened them a little to try it again in 22 when they tried it again.

SPEAKER_03: 15:41

Oh, yeah, and you see, that's a fair analysis. And this is coming from someone who's not a historical expert. So I don't want to hear this. Is the thing I hear online. Oh, you're not an expert, you shouldn't talk about it. Shut up. People could talk about whatever they want. You could criticize their ignorance, fine. But don't just say, oh, you're not an expert, you shouldn't talk about it. I'm tired of that argument. I hear it for both sides of the aisle too. So you're not an expert, you shouldn't talk about it. No, you could talk about it. What I would say that you should not do is present yourself as an authority figure.

SPEAKER_00: 16:14

Right, right. And I let everyone know I am a I am a fiction author. What I understand about the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is based on research. I I'm I'm not a political analyst. I I don't I don't know all of the ins and outs. I just know certain aspects. And I tried to focus less on the war aspect and more on the people and what they go through when these kinds of things happen. You know, so less about, well, who's right and who's wrong, and more about, can you imagine living in Ukraine right now? I know my book doesn't deal with right now, but but that would be the kind of thing that I would look at is like if I were someone who was currently living there, what would I be experiencing? How would my life look? And that's how I try to write. Less about the who's right and who's wrong, because that's often a very complex situation that's difficult to be able to just state this is right and this is wrong. There's often a lot of of gray space in there that that has a lot of nuances to it. And I'm I'm not an analyst. So I like to have people think more about what it would be like to be Ukrainian right now. And in this case, Ukrainian during the time of USSR and shortly thereafter, and then up through the 2014 invasion.

SPEAKER_03: 17:50

I mean, I mean, that's a lot of freedom right there, you know. And listen, I think everything she's saying is sound and rational. Again, set comments, be careful there, because I'm actually gonna be more on guard for this one because it's completely unwarranted. You can attack me, fine. I I don't give a rat's behind.

SPEAKER_00: 18:09

Yeah, keep that in mind. All attacks go to Elias and all pleasantries go to Terry. You got that.

SPEAKER_03: 18:16

Launch at me, I'm fine. I could take it. And it it remember, uh, the only ones I'm allowing through is constructive. That's the only way. If it's let you know, if it's personal attacks, I'm harmony attacks, or you're just stupid, or say you're stupid, yeah, then yeah. I don't I I I I'm not gonna even entertain that because I've gotten a few of those. I was like, okay, that's nice, that's nice. Skip. Skip, yep. Yep, skip. That's all I do. And because you're not worth the argument. And then you gotta be specific when you talk. You say, oh, you're wrong what I'm uh what I'm wrong about. These episodes are long. Name one specific point.

SPEAKER_00: 18:55

Right, and and it's okay, and and I've been wrong, and I've so something that I was wrong about. I do a lot of research and I try really hard to be as accurate as possible. And I have a scene early on where I show a father who's naming his son, and it turns out that there is a specific way that people are named in Ukraine, and I got it wrong, and I didn't do it right, and someone pointed it out to me and said, you know, they would have taken as their middle name, they would have taken their father's first name, boy or girl. And I did not know that. And now I do. Now I know that. And so if I were to write another book, I would change how I did that. So I'm I'm all for letting me know if you find something inaccurate. You know, I love learning. I think that's that's excellent. I also like, I don't mind a good debate as long as we're following debate rules, which is I listen to you and you listen to me, and then we both decide where the other one stands, and and we're where you can offer constructive criticism without, like you said, the name calling and the other things. And so, you know, I recognize that something like war, it's very nuanced and it's very, it's very hard to say who's right and who's wrong, and and what would what's the best way to end it? And I don't have any clue. I wish I did. I wish I could wave a magic wand and it would just be over because I worry more about those people who are living through it. One of the characters in my book, Sunflowers Beneath the Snow, is based off of a real person, my friend. She is a young woman. She's probably in her maybe late 20s, early 30s, right in there. And her family is still in Ukraine in the middle of all of this. And so I worry about that's what I worry about. And the the political aspect of it, you know, I I just I don't have the time or the patience for politics most of the time. And so I I worry more about the the people like me who are getting caught up in the politics. And what are we going to do for them and how are we going to help those people? And I feel the same way about, you know, I I I was reading one of the articles early, early on in the war when there were Russian soldiers who didn't realize they were at war. They were told that they were doing games like these war games and that they were not even in Ukraine. They didn't even recognize what was going on. And I feel bad for people like that who who get sucked into things they don't even know, or or they do know, but they're not allowed to say no. You know, those are the kinds of issues I love discussing. And then the politics, it's gonna have to take care of itself.

SPEAKER_03: 21:36

Oh, yeah, and trust me, politics is not for the faint of heart, because oof, the rhetoric, the the ego stroking is absolutely unbelievable. While so many people are dying, displaced, so much destruction. And look, I in my previous episodes I've criticized both leaders because I thought Zelensky could have done something to prevent it. But, you know, then then again, you know, Putin he's well when people He's not the easiest neighbor to deal with. Let's just say like that.

SPEAKER_00: 22:14

And not only that, but you know, people like power. And he he felt like he could go in and and stomp on a little guy and has for three years more or less gotten away with it. And you know, there's a lot of that going on too. And so you just kind of have to look. The kinds of things that make me concerned is is is okay, so this happened. It's been happening a lot in this area for for hundreds of years. But once you give someone a little power, then they want a little more power. I don't know if anyone's paying attention at all, but Russia recently has like air spaced into a few other countries just just in the last little bit. And why? Well, because they're feeling a little bit bold because they've gotten away with something again. And and those are the kinds of things that worry me. Less about the politics and more about the actualities, you know. And the actualities are is when someone is being a bully and you let them be a bully, they continue to be a bully. And that's true on a playground, and that's true in politics, and that's true, you know, that's true with with a bridge group, you know, and you're together playing bridge with the ladies, and you got one woman who's, you know, being a bully, she'll continue being a bully until someone tells her to stop. And it's just, it is the way it's human nature. And that's what I love to write about is human nature.

SPEAKER_03: 23:29

Now you include women, I say men, same thing, dude. It's more direct than physical about it. That's the difference. Women, I would say generally speaking, I say generally is always exceptions to either. Men can be manipulative and indirect, and women can be physical and direct. But women are more indirect about it. They do punch.

SPEAKER_00: 23:48

Generally speaking, women are more words. Right, and we're we're more we're we're more where we'll talk behind someone's back and whisper and that kind of thing, and men are more like punch you in the face. But one of the things that I've I've personally noticed, you know, psychology, just watching the world around me, I can watch two men who are really angry at one another, and even it turns into, you know, fists. And the next day, they can be at a bar having a beer together, and they're fine. Two women, they never they never get to fists, and and it's just a few little snippy comments, and that could go on for weeks. So there is something about the the physical, I think it kind of releases all of the angst in it, and then then you get to move on. Whereas, you know, doing it the kind of way that that women often do means that that you hang on to it, you don't have anywhere for it to go. So I'm not advocating punching people. I'm just saying I do notice that there is the No, no, don't worry about that.

SPEAKER_03: 24:49

And if you do for some reason, you're a fool, okay. I'm just gonna say straight, but you know, there's a comment section at your risk. Feel free to comment at that, okay? That's all I'm gonna say to you. Like I said, you got the right to be stupid, but you don't got the right to have the good consequences, okay? So you know freedom comes to responsibility, and there are consequences. You know, sadly with First Amendment, I wish it had more protections on that. That's just my personal opinion. But the reality is one the freedom of speech protects you from government, even though that's that's been tested, you know, with 4547, Orange Man using FCC to silence Jimmy Kimmel, even though this recording of September 23rd, I know we don't say the date, but it's important. Jimmy Kimmel's gonna be back. And let me just say this about Jimmy Kimmel, just really quick, super quick. He's not my most favorite comedian. I'm just gonna say that. But in principle, he should have the right to be critical. Look, if you want anti-Trump comedy, he's one of your guys, even though it's not the original.

SPEAKER_00: 25:59

Right, and I and I think that's that's something I think we need to be careful about what I would label as pure hate speech. Hate speech being, you know, I want to see so-and-so dead because they deserve to be dead, that kind of speech, maybe then we do need to kind of look at that. But in terms of I disagree with you and I'm gonna make fun of your policy, I mean, I maybe you don't want to listen to it, so don't. When it when it turns into it, in my opinion, this is this is a you know, First Amendment according to Terry, when you cross the line and you're now advocating that someone get hurt, then you've crossed a line. It's okay to say I don't like their policy, I think they're they're stupid, you know, he's orange, like any of those things. You though that's free speech. To say, you know, I think that we should assassinate him, that's no longer free speech. Now we've now we've crossed a line. And and I think I think in this particular case, I don't care for for Jimmy Kimmel. I don't like his, I don't find him to be funny at all. I I really don't. However, I think that this was a stretch. There were other people that certain things were said in this same period of time where it wasn't a stretch, where they really were advocating and celebrating death and and stuff. And to me, that crosses a line. So I think that we have to be careful and and that there are consequences for saying certain things. There's the the one the one thing where they say like you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. And so you have to be careful that you don't cross that line because that's where your free speech ends. And now you're now you're infringing on other people. But just because someone says something you don't like, that's not an infringement.

SPEAKER_03: 27:46

Oh no, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Once it comes, look, freedom of speech, not freedom of action. Oh, imagine that. This would have been a wow, wow, west. This America would never exist, right? We would have never made it through it. Right. We would have been a wasteland. Okay. Let's just say that. All right. So I'm laughing because it's just super ridiculous. Freedom of speech. Yeah, you're right. If I say I want it was you, Sari, and this will never happen. She's a wonderful person. If I want her gone because she wrote a book about Ukraine, and you know, I'm pro I'm a I'm a Russian asset, you know, that that's not freedom of speech.

SPEAKER_00: 28:23

No.

SPEAKER_03: 28:24

I should be locked up, I should be investigated, you know, and all of that stuff should be taken to account. I mean, and Madonna, you know, great singer back then, let's just say that. But when she said, I thought awfully a lot about blowing up the White House, yeah, she deserved that investigation.

SPEAKER_00: 28:39

Yeah, absolutely. Because there there comes a point where now what you're saying is actually a threat. And and there's freedom of speech, and then there's threatening people, and we're not allowed to threaten. You can say, you can even say wouldn't hurt my feelings any if if the White House disappeared. That would be free speech, right? I it's it's on an edge, but you you could say that. But if you said I'm going to go do it, or I want my fans to go do it, or you know, now you've you've taken free speech and you've gone too far. And so I think that that if I were a comedian today, I would definitely be taking a look at making sure that my rhetoric wasn't enticing people to go do something stupid, right? Like make sure that you're not part of the problem because our world has a problem right now.

SPEAKER_03: 29:33

I mean, for both sides of the aisle, and I do absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 29:36

I and I do not, I'm not pointing my finger at one side or the other. I'm pointing my finger across the entire platform of leaders and even just general citizens, that we we need to take a deep breath, take a step back, remember that our neighbor is our neighbor, you know, remember some of the basic things that. That I was taught as a child, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. You know, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. You know, there's some very, very basic how we get along in a society that I think we have forgotten.

SPEAKER_03: 30:15

Oh no, absolutely. And look, dangerous like two for you commentators, you want to disagree with this, go right ahead. Show your look, at your risk. This is at your risk here. You want to disagree with this? Go right ahead. I don't expect all of you to be sane. I'm I'm a realist, I'm a pragmatist. I wish I was more idealistic. I maybe when I was, yeah, until I was nine years old, and how walking the world was. But you know, my my point is I I I agree with everything. And is this not a left, right? Is this a right and wrong? Is this what means, you know, is this human versus barbarism?

SPEAKER_00: 30:49

Well, and I think I think it has less to do with politics and more to do with humanity. You know, as a human, as a as a woman, as as a neighbor, as a friend, as a mother, as a grandmother, as all of these things, I would love those that I know and love to be safe and to find kindness and all of those things. And so maybe I am a little bit of an idealist still, even at my tender age of 62. But I think that part of that is is I really believe that I remember, I still remember times when we were this way, where we were kind to one another and where we were good to one another. And I think we can get back to it. And part of it is going to be maybe taking a step back from labeling yourself, like whatever label that you give yourself politically, and whatever label you give yourself on all of these various and asundry ways, pull back and and stop being stop being Republican or stop being Democrat and try being human and let's see what we can do there. Because I think human to human, we can disagree and still be okay with one another.

SPEAKER_03: 32:00

Exactly. And this is why I've said before, I'm going to keep saying again, you dummies just don't get it. Disagreement does not equal hate.

SPEAKER_00: 32:08

Right, right. There used to be a time. I remember as a child, my parents would talk about whatever happened on the news, and news only came on three times a day. You got it first thing in the morning, you got it at dinner, you got it before bed. That was it. That's when you got the news. And they would talk about whatever the headlines were and they would discuss it, and then they didn't talk about it anymore. And if their friends came over and they talked about it and they didn't agree, guess what? My parents were not kicking their friends out of the house. Instead, they'd say, Oh, would you like some coffee? and they'd play some cards. It's what happened. You you could disagree, you could say, I don't, I don't agree with that at all. You could even get a little heated about it. And then everyone would sit down and and do whatever they were planning to do when they got together in the first place. And somehow that's disappeared in our world. Now it's very much, if you don't agree with me 100%, then you go away. And I don't like I don't know. I I really feel sad about that. I I think it's really sad and it's really hard for someone like me who's an author who has a wide base of readers. And I want a wide base of readers. That's that's what I want. And not not for even financial purposes, but because I want a wide range of people reading what I've written and and thinking about that and and trying to to you know decide what does that mean for them. And then it's so hard because then you have to be very careful about like how much do I say and and where can I stand and all of the other things. So politically, I try to remain rather neutral, at least online. You know, I I try to remain neutral, but there are certain things that I believe about humanity. And I believe that we can be kind to one another. You know, and I believe that we shouldn't incite violence. There's just certain things that I just think I believe that a bully will always be a bully unless they're told they can't be a bully. I mean, there are just certain things that I believe, but I don't feel like those are political things. I just feel like they are human psychological, sociological things.

SPEAKER_03: 34:09

Yeah, they're fundamentally human. Just like you say, you know, and look, they're let me just attack both sides of I, which I love to do as an independent, uh, a register independent at that. Like a real independent crit right there, capital I, because look, me politically, I'm leaning left for some issues, some issues I lean more to the right. However, this is why I'm purple in the end of the day, because I'm a mix of the two.

SPEAKER_00: 34:32

This isn't this isn't just political. This is this is everywhere. This is on a playground with a child, this is this is in a a gardening group, this is this is with your buds you play poker with. I mean, a bully is a bully is a bully. And and you know, there's not anything really political about that. You just have to figure out then what do you do with that? What do you do with that? So in Sunflowers Beneath the Snow, we just really get a good look at these three generations of women. And I think it's interesting that you had brought up earlier that that we don't take care of our elderly. And in this story, they all live together in one home. So we have these three generations, they're all together, and we get to see how they see what it's like living in a communist Ukraine. And then we get to look at what's it like living in a Ukraine that is becoming free? And how does that look when the new leaders are the old USSR leaders who are now trying to lead the country into freedom? And what does it look like when things finally start to really break through? And then what does it look like when Russia invades again? You know, and all of those things. And and I really love that story. The reason that I wrote it is because my friend told me this incredible tale of something that happened to her, and I thought, oh, that has to be written down. And so, in order for me to figure out, well, how could that have ever happened, I had to go back in years and write the story. And so I created a whole fiction about how this little piece of truth could happen. So if you ever were to read the book, the last three pages of the last chapter, not the epilogue, but the last chapter, actually happened to my friend. And then everything else is just my imagination as to how we could have gotten to that place. And it's funny because I have a review from uh one of these big review companies, and they said, Oh, it's a great book, yada yada. Except that the ending wraps everything up too neatly. Well, it's funny because the ending is the only true part.

SPEAKER_03: 36:32

Well, I'm anti-big companies, so they could go shove that.

unknown: 36:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 36:37

I I'm I'm saying it for the, you know, I I I don't expect her to speak like that. That I I will do that. Uh, just go do a review somewhere else. Look, when it comes to big companies, whatever, sometimes they just rhyme my gears, especially the company with that. But this part here, you know what? That means you hate truth. You hate truth, you've been exposed. No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm just stretching it. I I really don't know. You just got an opinion. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 37:06

I also think that sometimes, especially with book reviews, when you get into these big companies that that this is what they do, they do book reviews, they feel compelled to say everything that they like, and then they have to have something that they don't like. They have to have something. And for me, the fact that what they chose was the one true piece of my story, I've used it over and over and over. It has been wonderful for me because I that's what I'll start with is hey, I got this great review, and the only thing they didn't like was the true piece, you know, and and I love being able to say that. So, you know, that's just the way big companies work sometimes.

SPEAKER_03: 37:43

It's poetic, in my opinion. It really is. They they don't know it, they blindly landed that bait, and you know what? And I love it.

SPEAKER_00: 37:51

And I use it all the time. I use it every time I talk about the book.

SPEAKER_03: 37:54

So there you go. Um, a nice the best thumbs up, because I would love I would love to attack it, but you know what? It's been a blessing, ironically. You know, some blessings are in disguise. Absolutely. I don't know. I do I call it blessings because it was mostly good.

SPEAKER_00: 38:10

It's uh it was like a backhand kind of Yeah, and and that's the way I feel like these big company reviewers do. It's like, oh, this this book is fantastic, yada yada, yada yada, yada yada. And there's this one piece we really don't like, yada yada, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 38:25

Look at that. You make it look, you just boost their confidence. Good job. So for on's big business, gets a thumbs up. This is a pro small business independent podcast right here. That part I'm proudly biasing. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I I don't care where you lean politically, that's not supporting me. I call I even call myself anti-partisan because I think you lower your IQ if you are loyal to the partisan group.

SPEAKER_00: 38:48

Well, have you ever found any group in your entire life in which you believe absolutely everything that they spout? And for me, the interesting thing is. I mean, I've never, yeah. I've never, I've never been part of any group in which everything that they've ever said rings a hundred percent true to me. And so, you know, when you it's one of the reasons why I say we need to stop labeling ourselves. Because once you've labeled yourself and you say, well, this is what I am, and you've got this label on yourself, well, now you you've given yourself the right to stop thinking. You've given yourself the right to stop questioning, you've given yourself a right to just go along with the crowd because this is what you are. And that's what gets us in situations like we are now, where people hate one another and and aren't willing to talk to one another and and they they keep spouting the same lines over and over. But if you get down into it and you say, Why do you believe that? They don't have any clue. The number of times that that people are asked, why do you believe that? And and they they don't know. They just know because of whatever label they've put on themselves. And and that's a shame. And and that's what you know, if if I could make changes in the world, that's one of the things that I would change, is that people that you need to you need to do your own research and figure out really where you stand, and let's let's stop with all the labels. There's just they they do they do more harm than good.

SPEAKER_03: 40:08

More introspection, more research for sure. Yeah, less don't less trying to be compelled by your desperate sense of belonging. That's why you're gonna be able to do that. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 40:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think I think too that just being willing to listen, you know, you have a different opinion than I have, and I'm willing to listen to your opinion without attacking you for it, you know, and then ask real questions like, oh, well, how did you arrive at that? What are there life experiences that you've had that have that have made you see life that this way? Because my life experiences haven't made me see that, but I'd like to learn more about how you came to that place. I mean, if we were willing to do those kinds of things, where instead of saying, Oh, they're attacking what I believe, and therefore I'm going to go on the attack, instead, if we could say, huh, that's very interesting. That's significantly different than what I believe. Tell me more. My gosh, our world would be so much more amazing.

SPEAKER_03: 41:09

Yep. I mean, there's one thing to point out. You look at it more on an idealistic, optimistic perspective. I look more at things in a pragmatic perspective. You know, Dabby, we we look at life very, very differently. We've got, you know, different aspects of the city. Life shapes us. This is why we have our, you know. Me, I had to do some fighting, get the physical disvive. And but I also learned there is strategic use of compassion and being kind. You know, I think I think I just use more strategy. Um, is it good or bad? That's entirely up to you. That that that's a real common section to act. Which which one would you agree with more? Terry's way of optimism or my way of pragmatism. Now that's a real common activity right there. Right. And why? Or or make this more interesting, or neither.

SPEAKER_00: 41:57

And where do you stand and why? Yeah. And I think these are the kinds of conversations that if we could have them, that we would find, in fact, when we have them, we find that a lot of the things that separate us really don't matter as much, you know, because we've we've found some commonalities. Or it or if nothing else, I would, if we had a good long conversation about, you know, why you're an independent and why you're more pragmatic and why you're less idealistic, and we were to have like a really good in-depth, you and I alone just chatting, I could walk away from it and at least have a good understanding of how you came to the philosophy that you came to. And even if I didn't agree with it, I could understand you. I could say, oh, well, this is why Elias believes this. And and now it doesn't frighten me because I understand the genesis of where all of that came from. And in the world that we live in today, we don't do that with one another. We admit, we make assumptions. You know, if you believe this, if you are a Republican, then here is what you believe, and here's what's wrong with you. And if you're a Democrat, here's what you believe, and here's what's wrong with you. And you never stop to say, and here is a person whose name is Terry, and let's find out what she believes and why. When we don't do that for one another anymore.

SPEAKER_03: 43:13

Oh, you know, I agree. Sally has become such a law, lost art, which explained, which sadly indicates decadence of our communication, culture, politics, obviously. I mean, it contributes to all that. Microcosm, it's culture, you know, our so our socializing psychology, and then Sally becomes such a big issue. It impacts the culture and politics. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 43:36

I think now now this is another Terryism. I think part of the problem, well, part of what created where we are now is we became a 24-hour news cycle. And it used to be, like I said, we had news three or four times a day. Some channels had morning, noon, evening, and night. Some channels only had three, some only had two. And that was it. You didn't get news any other time of the day unless it was a huge event and it was a breaking news bulletin. But very rarely did that ever even happen. And now, today, with a 24-hour news cycle, there's not that much happening. And so you get one big thing happen and we talk about it 24 hours a day for days on end. Well, you can't keep saying the same thing over and over or you lose listeners. So you have to start bringing in talking heads and finding people with different ideas and drawing all of this in and and finding one small thing that happened in a video, and you see this person in the background 14 feet away, and you say, Oh my gosh, this is what this means. And then we could do four hours about that. And that, I think, is part of what is shaping how people respond, because instead of just getting news, we get opinion. News channels aren't news channels anymore, they're opinion channels.

SPEAKER_03: 44:56

I agree. It's so and and the political bias of either side is really up there.

SPEAKER_00: 45:01

And and if you don't believe it, do this experiment. Go watch MSNBC or CNN and then watch Fox. Watch the same about the same news. So whatever, you know, whatever's going on, we're going to say, you know, A ABC invaded, you know, whatever, right? So watch. Go watch the one channel and then go watch the other, and you will not know that you were watching about the same thing. You will have no idea because the two talk about it so differently that you would never understand that you were watching the same event. There's a problem there. That's not news, that's opinion. And it's okay as long as you know that's what you're getting. You know, if you want to go watch the opinion, that's fine. Have at it. I'm not saying stop watching the news or anything else. I'm just saying news isn't really news anymore. We don't have news headlines, we have opinion headlines. And news channels have these talking heads that come on and they give their opinions. That's what they're doing. And that's fine if you recognize that's what you're getting. But if you're watching it and you think you're getting news, then you you're not.

SPEAKER_03: 46:10

No, I I absolutely agree. And and look, they want to make money too. They advertise it as well. That's another thing. So it's not just if you think it's informative, you are naive. I'm gonna just be honest with you. This is just, you know, and one I'll I'll add a few. In the center, there is NewsNation. And if another one on the right that's been growing, I I don't know if their growth has stopped. Maybe maybe after that Dominion Court thing, Newsmax. Well, it makes Fox look like they're in the center. If you don't know, it really if you watch Newsmaxes versus Newsmax and Fox alone, Fox is center right compared to Newsmax. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 46:47

And so I think the thing is is you can look and there's there's a a wide range. So really, if you actually want to understand what's going on in the world today, you need to watch a variety of news channels that that span from very left-leaning to very right leaning and everything in between. And then I also recommend throwing in a couple of international channels so that you get an idea of what the international people think is going on. And then maybe you will have a slight grasp of what's happening in the world today. But if you only listen to a very biased channel on the right or a biased channel on the left, you're really not going to know what's happening in the world realistically. You're gonna know opinions that align with your belief system, but you're not gonna actually know the news.

SPEAKER_03: 47:36

Birthing tribalism right there. And well, this is why I push ground news, because it aggregates all those sources together from the very left to the very right, and everything else in between that spectrum.

SPEAKER_01: 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 47:51

So you will know just a headline. This is what they're talking about, what all the sources, how they're reporting it, it's you're correct. Very, very differently. And let me just use down the left-wing version that MSNBC. Actually, no, no, I got something better. Jacobin, very left versus CNN. CNN is sensor left compared to Jacobin. Jacobin is socialist practically. They yeah, they they're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 48:19

And I guess that's the point is is that it's all available to us. And are we using it correctly? And the way to use the way to use this correctly is to watch a wide variety of sources, especially sources that you don't agree with. I think that's even more important that you see what else is being said, because when you only listen to people who agree with you, you become very, very jaded, one-sided, you you can't then see the other side. I think it's very important for people to try to see across these barriers that we've set up for ourselves. I'm getting way more political today than I ever normally get.

SPEAKER_03: 48:57

Hey, you know what? That was not my intent, but it was gonna be pretty political anyways. So but regardless, you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 49:04

But I do want to point out again, I do want to point out again that that I'm being political, but not really. I'm saying that we have a problem with our politics. And what I'm trying to do is suggest some things that we can do to help that, which is stop labeling o stealth, stop exclusively watching news that agrees with you 100% of the time. So I'm not really being political as much as I'm being, I'm trying to be a little more rational. Like, let's look at what we can do to fix this abysmal problem that we have, which is I can't talk to you if I disagree with you.

SPEAKER_03: 49:38

Well, let me use the let me use one example. If I'm Fox News, the way Terry said, oh, believing in humanity. Oh, she's a leftist. I mean she wants all the right, she wants to give up my wealth, oh then Terry is a socialist, a communist, and all the things.

SPEAKER_00: 49:54

You know, and it and it's so funny because I'm I'm uh like you, I am an independent, and I find myself on the left and on the right, depending on what issue we're talking about. And sometimes I find myself totally confused and I have no idea where I stand. And I think that's where most people are, if they will be honest. They will realize that there are some issues. Yeah, there are some issues where I'm definitely liberal leaning when it comes to certain things. And there are some issues where I am so conservative. And there are other issues I have no clue where I stand. I don't have any idea. And I think I think that's okay.

SPEAKER_03: 50:30

I think with immigration, I think both of the sides are pretty bad. I have like a solution, it's a little bit of a mix of both. Use a Republican raft when it comes to bad migrants, and use a left-ling perspective, you let use the more left-leaning policies that incentivizes good immigration, speed up the process, see things like that. See, it has to be nuanced. Let's be a mix of the two. See, sometimes I create a third lane. And I think that's hard to do.

SPEAKER_00: 50:54

It is hard to do, but I also think that that's really what's necessary in in most situations with most conflicts that you have to you have to be willing to get out of your lane and see where are there any intersections? Are there any intersections at all? And usually the answer is yes. It might be minor, but there's something. Start there, and now let's see what we can build from here. There was a time many years ago, I'm 62, so many years ago, where compromise was the thing that happened in Congress. Some people got some of what they wanted, other people got other of what they wanted. They put it together in the bill, not everybody got a hundred percent of what they wanted, and then we moved on with the world because that's what compromise is. And I think compromise has pretty much bit the dust.

SPEAKER_03: 51:45

Oh, yeah. No, now it's just doubled down on extremism. Yeah. And and on on both sides. On both sides.

SPEAKER_00: 51:51

It's like, it's like, watch me dig my heels in. And I hate that. And and this is where my optimistic, idealistic side comes in, because I keep thinking, certainly we can fix this. Like, certainly. Can't why can't people just why can't people just get along, Elias? That's what I want to know.

SPEAKER_03: 52:10

Well, I think you answer part of it. The way we the way we consume news. We go to news as makes us comfortable and makes us now use the left, and let me pretend not to be a left-wing person. Oh, let me go check my MSNBC and CNN. Yeah, Trump is the devil. Yeah, he he should be impeached as soon as he wins the election. Okay, that's right. A little dramatic, but you get the point. Well, and it's like I was being dramatic pretending, you know, thinking that Terry was a communist. Right. Just to give the just to give you a little example of the right-wing Kool-Aid, you know, believe it.

SPEAKER_00: 52:44

Well, and I think that's that's the problem that that we run into. And it's one of the things in my book, Sunflowers Beneath the Snow, that although I wasn't trying to be political, I wanted people to walk away feeling like they now understood, at least to a small degree, the plight of someone who is currently living in Ukraine. What would that look like? What would that feel like? How would that impact them? And that if you can do that, if you can have that little tiny bit of empathy, then maybe that empathy can help you come up with a solution. That you know what's that takes into account people.

SPEAKER_03: 53:24

Yeah. No, that's no, that that's great. Like I said, a civilian people perspective is I think that you have most freedom with historical fiction, you know, instead of I don't know. Let's throw a crazy example. Write a fictionalized version of Putin. That's that's gonna be controversial. Rather you love him or even bash him, you're gonna get a lovers and haters. It's right. Yeah, you there's no there's no uniting right there, you know, which I I know you will never do. Uh let's be honest. Which I don't and I don't blame you. It has nothing to do with cowardice, it's just it's insane. Just even spew that I even call myself insane on that one. And let's just say, you know what's a great way to divide a political party? War. This particular war, the Ukraine war. I already talked about you know how the Israel Hamas conflict divided Democrats. This is a conflict that divides Republicans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 54:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 54:16

So if you this is when intra-political conflict happens. This is when you realize, oh, this is the neoconservatives, the libertarians, all this is when the different subgroups start fighting each other.

SPEAKER_00: 54:29

Exactly. Exactly. And you can see that happening all the time. And and and you can see it happening when you start watching any particular news show, especially if you're willing to sit down and listen to like four talking heads debate one another, and they're supposedly all on the same side, and then all of a sudden they're not.

SPEAKER_03: 54:46

You know, this one's CNN show, I gotta praise. She'll do perfectly, but I think she's on the right track. Abby Phillips, because she has some right wingers, she has some independents, she has some left wingers, even though it gets chaotic, and I'm not gonna lie. Well, yeah, I'm sure it does. The childish shadow because it enjoys it with the way you're freaking arguing, but this is a step in the right direction. And it's it's a m it's messy, but you know what? It's a messy kind of progress. Right. Uh, we have people that debate, and I think this needs to be done. Um, I think it's gonna get to the point that they're gonna get tired of shouting and yelling, just bringing their points up. But but you know, the the media's gonna have a problem. I mean, they love ratings, so they love what people argue with.

SPEAKER_00: 55:25

Well, and and and arguments skit ratings. You know, when my husband and I rode across the United States on a tandem, we had a lot of trouble getting any media to pay attention to us, despite the fact we were doing this big thing, we were raising money for Toys for Tots. And I would say to him all the time, we just need someone to shoot at us. Because if someone would shoot at us, we would make it on the news, right? And that's kind of the another thing that's that's a shame is good news stories don't really make it on the news very often. Every now and then you'll get a nice little feel-good story. But generally speaking, if someone is shot, if there's a bomb, if there's a war, if there's if there's people screaming at one another, boy, that's gonna make the news. But you have two people pedaling across the United States and they happily met someone in a parking lot and talked for an hour, that's going nowhere.

SPEAKER_03: 56:15

Oh no. There's some and they're I only even super similar version of it. Oh, that's boring.

SPEAKER_00: 56:20

I don't care about that. And you know, the thing is, is that's what they say, and yet when I talk to people one-on-one, I hear all the time, oh, I just wish there was so much more good news. And I think, well, then why are the ratings only good when it's bad?

SPEAKER_03: 56:36

You know, I never, you know what, I've been thinking about this for years. People do crave for good news, and uh this is this is my theoretical statistic, so I'm making this up. For every nine bad news, you're gonna get a little feel-good story, and then there's another nine bad news before you get another feel-good story. So 90% of the time you're getting negative news. You know, someone's getting shot, and sadly for YouTube, someone's getting grape. You know what that rhymes with. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 57:04

You know, there's just a lot of there's a lot of yuck stuff happening out there in the world, and we get to see it all.

SPEAKER_03: 57:10

Yeah, and oh, someone did drugs. Ooh, this one slept with three different wives? Yeah. What at the same day within 24 hours? Oh, that's all that's gonna be talked about for weeks. Right. How did this guy pull it off? Well, he's such a such, you know, you know, he's unloyal. I'm trying not to use the slang here. There you go. Unloyal. He's a three-time Tom. Oh my god. Listen to me, a millennial becoming the boomer. Uh, a millennial. There you go. Anial term. There you go. New term, new term right there. I'm coining that. I want to copyright. I will sue anyone who takes it. I'm kidding. I don't really don't care. I I'm so creative, I could come up with new stuff. So I don't worry about that. Yeah, Billennial. Millennials becoming a boomer. There you go. You heard it here first. You heard it here first at politically high tech. All right. So Billennial. Right. So, and you know, I I like to try to fun with these conversations because it could get exhausting.

SPEAKER_00: 58:09

Well, some days are tough. That's all there is to it. Yeah. Even optimistic idealist Terry can tell you that some days are tough. And that's just that is just the way it is. But optimistic idealist Terry will tell you that some days are tough, and then the next day isn't so bad anymore, and eventually it gets better. And that's that's my my belief. And I and I'm still holding on to that belief for our nation that we'll we'll figure it out and we'll get it together. I hate, I just hate to see all of the the unrest and anger and angst at one another. I just I just want to see us get along. I would just love for us to just get along and and stop letting a few people dictate how the rest of us respond to one another. Because I think that's also happening a lot, is you know, you get a couple of people that they get a lot of news time and they get to they get the platform, they get to say whatever they want to say, and then the rest of us all kind of go along and say, oh my gosh, this is must be what's true. And, you know, I don't know that it is. When my husband and I rode across the United States, we rode in 2020, so it was COVID and it was political unrest. And generally speaking, I mean, we were out there for three and a half months on a bicycle, so very exposed, very we we could have, I mean, if someone wanted to hurt us, they could have. We we didn't have any way to protect ourselves, right? And yet, what did we run into? Wonderful people. Wonderful people who who voted differently than us, who uh some were immigrants, some were were citizens, some were some were heterosexuals, some were homosexuals, some were Democrats, some were Republicans, some were wealthy, some were not. And yet what did we find? Nice people. And I think there I I hang on to that because I know they're out there. And I just hope that maybe we can get a voice that says, we've had enough of this divisive junk and let's make our country right. And the way to make our country right, and I don't mean that politically, I mean let's make it correct. Let's make it correct is is we need to go back to the basics. Be kind, talk nicely, be respectful, be willing to listen to someone else's viewpoint, agree to disagree. Like it's okay to it's okay to disagree. It's okay. You don't have to hurt someone because you disagree. You can just disagree. You can scroll on by. You know, you don't there's just so much that we can do that we don't do. And but that's that's kind of where I stand.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:46

You know, you're absolutely right. You know, and I'm not gonna repeat it because it's these are profound things. I hope you were listening to this, listeners. Now I'm wearing my serious mature hat now. So she's the little positivity is rubbing off of me. And I I do I do want to be more optimistic, but I don't want to be, you know, toxic optimistic, you know, to the point that's a lot of.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:06

I mean, the the the there is, you know, the whole Pollyanna where you just walk around and you believe everything's and and I'm not that. I know, I know bad exists. I see it. I know it's out there, but I also know that good exists. And I just feel like a lot of people have forgotten that aspect. We hear all the time bad exists, bad exists, bad exists. Look at the news, bad exists. See it? Bad exists, bad exists, bad exists. And I'm telling you that when I rode across the United States during a time where supposedly bad existed really big and our whole world was falling in, you know, into pieces, that that's not what we found. Generally, we found nice individuals who were just trying to live life. And we need to, I don't know, we need to start having a voice and saying, look, we want our country back. We want people just to, let's just agree to disagree and move forward.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:58

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. No, you're exactly right. And you know what's not an organization I'm gonna push that's trying to do that through conversations, especially with heated topics. Raver Angels in every state in America. I'm part of that group. As one of the few eyes, I tell them, look, I'm not the red and the blue, do something creative with that, because I'm not gonna wear either color. One of them just put it together. I was okay, fine, whatever. That's good enough for me. I I don't expect for much. That's you know, I'm gonna plug that in there as well. Look, these are tools I'm giving you. Okay, some, you know, they got free versions and some's gonna cost a little something. They're free to smoke, too, too low cost, okay? Even the new paper, the new paper's different. It gives you factual, straight to the point, kind of read. The longest like five minutes. But if you want to just read what you like, just politics, whatever, that's like one or two minutes tops. You know, instead of just hearing the left wing flavor, the right wing flavor, even the sensor flavor of the story.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:56

You just could get just some some some basic facts and you know, let you make your own opinion. I'd I'd really love to go back to the point where you made your own opinion around the dinner table discussing the facts that you heard and saying, Well, this is what I believe and why. Well, this is what I believe and why. Please pass the mashed potatoes.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:16

Exactly. We need to see that's that's the goal right there. Yeah. I think Braver Angels is making uh impact of that. They, you know, they debate things like immigration. That's a heated topic.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:26

It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:26

Gerrymandarin, but one of the charters are going to debate that. That's well, that's become a heated topic because what Texas is doing and California's gonna do to counter that. And um, oh, what's the other one? Oh, you know, RFK to follow the science. That has become such a hot topic, you know, the RFKs. What is science? And then have science become too politicized.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:50

And the thing is, is is I, as someone who loves science, I absolutely enjoy reading sciencey things, finding out the cool stuff that's happening. I've lived long enough that I know that follow the science almost is laughable because science changes really quickly. Because you believe something that's true, and it's true for the moment until you learn something new that now makes yesterday's science no longer true. And so follow the science, yes. As long as you understand that as long as you're doing science correctly, you're going to keep making new discoveries. If we followed the science and then just stopped, we would be back at fire and and in a wheel. You know, there was a time where science said we couldn't have electricity, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:37

Oh, that's exactly right. Yeah, you want to go back to fires and wheels? Trust me, most people will not be able to handle that, including me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:43

No, and so I think that that when we say follow the science, I agree with that, but we also need to recognize that science is as fallible as anything else. And science has a lot to do with who did the study, why did they do the study, who paid for the study. When they got the study results, how did they interpret them? What what kind of graph did they put them on? I can show you three different graphs with the same statistics and it will show you three different things. One will look flat line, one will look, you know. Why? Because you can manipulate things and you do that because you want your results to show one thing or the other thing. So, so when you follow the science, are you following the science or are you following the politicized piece that they've taken and put on the news for you? You know, there's a difference. There's just a difference. And and Republicans do it and Democrats do it, and it's just done. And this is this is how people get followers. This is how you become part of the the mass of of you know people that follow something is because you heard this thing and now you believe it, and it may or may not be true, or it may be true, but only partially true.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:49

And that's sad, that's only true. It's partially true. Part one and two is true. Three, four, five, five is a little iffy, yeah. Yeah, the narrative, you know, you can tell it's a political narrative that taints it. You know, and it the sadly that's normally the true. It's normal, it's it's a mix, and that's makes it extra convoluted at best. And in some people say, ah, you know, I'm tired of hearing all this. I'm just gonna quit and just be a cave person, just do what I want to do. Go back to the wheel and the fire, right? Or I wanna or I just want to create my own little sanctuary, my games, my whatever. I just want to live alone, I don't want to deal with people anymore. So people are just gonna do that. I say become Amish if they accept you. I doubt they will because we keep their culture pure. Or become a cave person or live off the grid.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:36

Yeah. Live off the grid might be the best. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:38

Live off the grid is probably the most practical of all of my app suggested. And of course, I'd be biased about it because I think it's dumb. Just, you know, blend in, you know, but do it at your own pace. I don't say don't go super fast about just just work at your own pace. That's my practical advice to you. And just do a little by the other, talk to someone you trust, find your own ways through it. Because I just give you general tips. You could edit them, you'll tailor it to make the works for you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:06

Isn't that what we're supposed to do? I mean, I hope that's what you've been advocating to people, is is here are some things that I know. Now you evaluate them and figure out how you use them best in your own life. And I think that if all of us did that, we would be in a much better place. Instead of I'm gonna listen to to this talking head and they're going to tell me how to evaluate my own life. I just, I don't think that's a valuable way of of understanding the world or understanding your neighbors, or or in this day and age, even understanding your family. I mean, there's there's families now that don't speak to one another because they don't agree with each other, and that's crazy. I've never known a family that's agreed. I mean, families always disagree. That's what that's what makes family family. There's always been, I mean, there there's always been the crazy conversation at Thanksgiving, right? Where somebody says something and everybody else is looking like this. Why is it that now when we have those conversations, it means that we can no longer be family?

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:02

We lost the art of socializing. And that's just traditional media to cable. That's what got the older brains. This captivate the younger brains. Yeah. So it's a double whammy. Yeah. Attacking different demographics just in terms of age.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:16

Well, but but this the the cell phone, it does the same thing that a 24-hour news cycle does. Because if I want to know something or see something or see what everyone else is seeing, I can pick this up and I can flip through and I can find out. All of my friends say, you know. And I think sometimes we need to put it down. You know, it's one of the reasons I really do advocate reading, you know, like actually picking up a book and reading a book. Because a book can take you places that you aren't able to go. It can cause you to think about things you might not think about. It can introduce you to people that you would never be able to meet otherwise. It can introduce you to concepts that you're unaware of. It can do all of these things, even if it's fiction. It can, it can give you this possibility of seeing the world just slightly differently through the eyes of a character that you can't be. You know, I'm currently reading a book. It's it's very interesting, but the the main character is Vietnamese. Well, I'm not Vietnamese, I can't be Vietnamese, I'll never be Vietnamese. No matter what I do, I can't do that. But for the moment, while I'm reading this book, I can be Jenny. I can be this Vietnamese character, and I can feel the issues that she's having, right? Well, that gives me empathy. And as soon as I have empathy, now the next time I hear something that maybe has to do with the Vietnamese people, I will have this character in my mind. And maybe it will cause me to think about things just a little differently, which is one of the reasons why I love the idea of reading. I think everyone should pick up books, mine in particular, but you know.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:55

No, of course, go to hers, burn everybody else's. No, I'm kidding. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:00

No, absolutely do not do that. Absolutely do not do that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:03

Oh, you see, you see, you see, the that that's a real disagree. No, no, I'm not just kidding. Just just get her book and put the rest aside. Let them collect duh. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:13

I go out and read. Read, read widely. Definitely read widely. And I think read across read across genres, read across authors, read, read fiction, read nonfiction. Like definitely get out there and and and read. And and the reason is is it will it will start to open up your mind to other possibilities, things that you aren't going to run into when you get caught in your own little tunnel, you know, of I only hear this and I only see these people and I only think these ways. And then pick up a book that's different than that, and and it will cause you to think. And and thinking is exactly what we need to do in this world.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:51

Uh, Terry is no fun. You see, I'm strategizing trying to try to amp up the nomination. She's she she's not. I said that my masculine, my, my, my aggressive approach, just put them aside.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:02

No, but I just tell you, no, no, no, no, no, Elias. That's not what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:07

No fun.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:09

I'm sorry, you invited me on and you knew this about me. So, you know, you get what you get.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:13

Yeah, I no, no, I I I respect that. I respect that. Well, you know what? You know, one once more. So, you know what could do most of that for me? Drugs. I could become another person, go wacky, do this, and all of that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:25

But that's not true because then what you're getting is complete made-up fantasy in your head. You're not you're not getting anything that you don't already know, that you're just not rearranging some weird way in your head. Books. You know, when you had the the English teacher that told you, oh, it's like a gateway, it really is. It really does open up things. I read about characters that I can't know how they would feel any other way. You know, I I will never be a man, I will never be another color, I will never be from another country, I will never, I will never Well, I I I've never I have four children, not one of them died when they were young, so I would never have that experience or know how that would feel. All of these experiences, people who've never ridden across the United States on a tandem bicycle can know at least to a tiny degree what it's like if they read my book, right? Those are the kinds of things that I think make reading and as authors give us this platform where we have the ability to offer people a chance to see something they might not see otherwise.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:36

All right, let me put the adult hat on uh for a second. I was being fooled, you know, I like to fool around all that. And if you don't like my sense of humor, so be it. That's why I'm very aggressive, and I don't mind the hate in the chat to be spewed. Be go on censor, go crazy. YouTube censors you, not me, at the end of the day. And I will censor idiotic comments from the guest unless the guest is very curious. That's the only exception I will make. That's just my general rule because if I think it's nonsensical, like you're stupid, listen, that you know, you're just not adding anything. You're just you're just a cyber bully. And you know what's your weakness, but I ignore you, don't even take it very seriously. Physical bullying on the other hand, well, that's one idea, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:20

For those of you who are on this today, if Elias lifts up his fist, I run.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:24

I just Yeah, there you go. Two different approaches to a physical bully. That's a debate. Which one's more effective?

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:32

I think it depends, Elias. Like, if I were to punch someone, they would laugh and then they would they would cremate me. I'm more likely to outrun them than I am to outpunch them. So for me, it's wiser to run. Now, for you, I don't know. Maybe you're really good at punching, in which case you should stay and fight. But for me, no, I need to get out of there or f or find someone who will like pull them in and say, here you fight for me, because they're, you know, yeah. I just know me, I know my weaknesses. No one if I punched someone after they got done laughing, then then they would beat me to a pulp. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:07

But seriously, people just uh hope you're getting at least the big picture of it. Those are they they're valid based on situation. Me, nine out of ten times.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:17

Really, I think that's another thing. We can't say all anything.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:21

Not all women, not all men, not all Americans, not all there's some men that are, you know, very weak, that they'll take your approach exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:30

And there are some women who, by golly, they scare me, you know, like who. So I think that that if we as a as a people could just figure out how to stop doing that and saying all this, you know, all Republicans, all Democrats, all people who voted red or MAGA blah blah blah. Stop. Stop. We just need to stop. We just need to stop.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:57

Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right. Woof. We went longer than anticipated, but you know what? This is all good. This is all good. I don't mind it. I don't have a lot of I don't have a lot of rules here except for the real basic ones. Be interesting. Definitely not boring people, don't you have a one shot in here, and then I'm not biting them again, even if they provide some value, because you gotta be at least have at least pique people's curiosity. Yeah. That's my bare minimum. Bare minimum. And then provide some value. That's my mid-tier. And then my highest tier, provide value while being entertaining. Hard to do, I know, but that's that these are the standards I have because a few of them told me they were boring, and you know what? The earlier guests I say, you know what, I agree.

unknown: 1:15:42

I agree.

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:43

Yeah, and and I try to make it fun.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:45

They weren't, they were just it was like And and it's hard too in the beginning because you don't know your own style yet, and you're still trying to figure everything out, and and you're inviting anyone who wants to come on because you're trying to to have people on. Yeah, no, I know as a as a host, you do have to kind of really work at how do we make this interesting. And then you you are often controversial, so then you have to make it interesting controversial, but not go so far over an edge that it turns into something else. So you have a whole nother layer on there that I don't even try to go for.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:18

Oh, yeah, no, I don't mind controversy. And I invite people who bring controversial topics because to me they need to be talked about. I I take it a step further. Avoiding them just makes it worse. That that's why I decided to tackle them. Rather I'm love or hate it, um, that's something I think about much layer. But I just think you know we need to be grown up. You need to at least am I saying talk about this uh 24-7, 365 days? No. But we're gonna have to talk about it at some point. We need we need we need to relearn as a society how to have difficult, controversial conversations. Instead of just dodging in and just saying Oh, you're fascist, oh you're a racist.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:53

I think it needs to be a high school class, you know, how to have the in fact, I think all high school students should have to take debate or something in which they learn how to have not just the conversation, but they learn how to choose a side and then and then like choose both sides. Like you have to choose this side and defend it, and now you have to choose that side and defend it. Because if you can do that, then you really do know what you believe.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:20

You know what? I it this is what this is what I'm gonna give you the rights from the credit. Some of you not even a lot of you, there's a few of you in the right I have even advocated for something similar to this. Civics debate needs to come back to school, and you know what? I agree a hundred percent. This and this is this should be coming from I'm I'm sure some on the left have said it, but I haven't I haven't encountered those. Feel free to link those people in, people. I'm just telling you based on what I know, but I'm sure there's those on the left that will agree as well. Let's just include in Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:53

I I think that there's a lot of people that agree, maybe for different reasons, but I just feel like we've we've lost the ability to communicate, we've lost the ability to disagree cordially, we've lost the ability to know why we believe something. And classes like civics and debate will teach that again. And I think that's what it's missing. It's missing in several generations. And you know, how do we fix it? Well, you're not gonna very well fix a 62-year-old, right? But you can fix a 16-year-old. I mean, you still have a chance to encourage them to start thinking things through and to not just take everything at face value. It's gonna be harder to change those people who've already lived their life. But yeah, I don't know. That's why I think that we need to start looking at like what are we teaching kids? I also, though, believe that we need to do finances in schools so kids have an idea like what is a credit card and how does one use it. Like we should be teaching that. General things like how do you do taxes, like general life things to me is far more important than you know, French four. That's my opinion. But, you know, I I would love to see maybe some more practical, you know, how to get along with your neighbor would be really a good class because people don't know how to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:21

I remember. For the 10 little rules, I'm just gonna say very brief. You check out episode 288. I'm gonna link that episode, okay, if you want to hear more about that, because look, I'm not gonna have her regurgitate that whole hour. First of all, it's torturous and practical, it just played dumb. You know, this is why it's recorded and say for a reason. We gotta be her already know this. But some of you who got a lot of free time in your hands, you'll know this. We value our time, okay? You know, it may not look like it to some of you because we could just talk and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah for for for hours. For some of you who are antisocial and go go go see a psychiatrist for that. Maybe, maybe something wrong, or or maybe it's your personal I don I don't know. I'm being now actually being serious. I could be an A-ho about it and just come up comes to remark. Look, I was raised in this, I was raised in New York City. Some of this comes out, you know, with a smart attitude, rush, being pragmatic. Well, no, being pragmatic is different because there's some there are oddly optimistic, almost to the point that I think they're on drugs. But that you know that's the Pollyanna times 10. Right. No, no, no, not this, not Terry. No, no, no, twist it now. She she has good head on her shows, you know, she's optimistic. And and me, her, there's there's gonna be there's gonna be look, we really disagree on some things. Me, I I'm more aggressive, my approach, like put the other books aside, even though I'm trying to promote her. She knows that, but you know, she's far too, you know, she's good two goody two shoes for me. I probably am, and that's her but you know that's okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:59

But isn't that isn't that what makes the world go round, right? Is is if everybody was Elias, the world would be boring, and if everybody was Terry, the world would be boring, and we wouldn't be able to have this great conversation if you and I were identical because we'd have nothing to say. And so instead, we're able to play back and forth on one another and we're able to point out where we agree and where we disagree, and that is the whole point.

SPEAKER_03: 1:21:20

Exactly. I'd say you want to know why she can speak so well. She already plugged in her podcast, multiple podcasts as she does, by the way. I mean, it clearly shows. Thanks. Clearly. I mean, I don't care what opinion you have of her, but you cannot knock her for her incompetence of being a podcast. I mean, we both are podcasts, so it was a bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, being. Look, we were just verbally ping-ponging this ball called various ideas, and I smacking one shit back to the other way. But you know what? The flow is good keeps it keeps going. It's back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And it's been mostly smooth. You know me. I try to add a little spike in there. She chips it all.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:57

Chip it all back to you. I'm not gonna have it, Elias.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:01

You know, I'm trying, you know, just for the win, you know, for the win. You know, strategic competitiveness has to be her just like, oh, play by the rules. What's wrong with this wacko? You know, she's very conservative on the rules of the game. Uh uh, don't no, I didn't say she was right with she's very conservative of the rules of the game. She's protecting the integrity of the game. Ah, you see, you expect me I use that word in that in that context. I didn't say politically, because look, she she's an independent too. So look, uh you know what's the you know what's an awesome thing about being independents? We the most scattered when it comes to ideas. We are just all over the place. We could be the most left of the left, the most right of the right, and obviously in between. Look, I mean, it's the most beautiful disorganization I could tolerate because we have we are the most diverse in terms of the.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:51

Well, yeah, and I and I think the world needs more of that. We just need more people who are willing to be more of a free thinker where you're willing to say, I'm here and I'm there, and I'm here, and then even to be willing to say, and I don't know where I am. On this particular issue, I don't even know where I stand yet. I'm still doing my research.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:11

Yeah, sadly, my opinion. Did that you know that's exactly my opinion, Ukraine-Russian war. Before I was more of this, and I was that. I say, uh, you know what, I'm just gonna sit back and just I I don't. This is the one I I to this day, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:24

It's well, and I don't know the answers. I certainly do not know the answers. I wish I did.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:29

Yeah. This is someone who has done even research of it. The more I do, the more undecided I Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:35

The more you the more you learn, the harder it is to to break it all down. It's it's not as simple as the sound bites on the news would have you believe. On either side. On either side, which wh whichever whichever way you're leaning, whatever you've heard of the sound bites for the way you're leaning are it's not as simplified as that. There's a lot of of gray area going on. There are a lot of it's just different. It's difficult. And I think that's true of war in general. You know, you'd you'd like to believe there are just two points of view. There's theirs and ours, and and now we know what we're doing, but it's never that simple.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:10

Or a very childish one, I call it good versus evil.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:14

Who's good, who's evil? I mean, you you could you could easily debate that on both sid on both sides, depending on what angle you're looking at. If you're the enemy, you're gonna say if you're you know, you're gonna say the opposite is evil, and vice versa. And then you then there's and of course, people on let me just use Russia-Ukraine, Ukraine's gonna say, we're justified, we're the good ones, and Russia can say the same thing for their side.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:37

So it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:39

My second book is called An Enemy Like Me, and it's about a first generation German American who ends up fighting in World War II. He thinks he's gonna fight the Japanese, he ends up in Germany, where he's more like the enemy than he is different from the enemy because his parents are German and he lives in the United States, he's American, yet he speaks fluent German, he eats German foods at home, he knows all the German customs, and he recognizes oh my gosh, I am more like the enemy than I am like the country I'm fighting for, and yet I believe in the country I'm fighting for. And it really shows that idea that it's not as cut and dry as we'd like it to be.

SPEAKER_03: 1:25:18

You know, that's such an excellent conundrum. Yeah. Ooh. Would I be treated as an author? Definitely not. I don't know what's gonna be. Maybe, maybe tackle on some of this political divide, because after talking to people, I've gained some ideas, got some ideas of my own. You know, that's something TBD. I don't know, maybe I'm not gonna say 2026, maybe 2027. I'm gonna come with some with some book, and this is for both sides of the aisle. I want to make sure it's fun, it's hooking engaging, and I'm definitely gonna need an author's help because I never wrote a darn book, only little essays and things like that. You know, I look, but I got one right here. There you go.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:04

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:05

I I don't know if it's uh I don't know, I don't want to make it like a self-help because it's gonna seem so scammy and sellsy. That's the thing. I really hate sounds. I really hate myself sounding selsie. Now that see, I could take a stand on that. Anti-Celsy. Now I'm not I'm not neutral. I'm proudly biased on that one. You can't convince me otherwise on something like that because I just hate sales pitch people. I just think they're all liars, they all want my money.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:28

Well, yes, yeah, and that's what it feels like.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:30

That's how raven I am with a lot of salespeople, unless you got something exactly what I wanted and you actually listen to me, then then then I agree, which is 90% of you don't. You just want to just shove something in, just give me my money. Right. I could say nasty words. I'm gonna wrap it up there, but I do have one final gutsy question before we wrap this up. Oh, listen. Anything else you want to add before?

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:52

No, no, actually, I don't. Other than, you know, like if you read the book, I'd love for you to reach out to me. Tell me what you think, tell me how you feel I handled the whole Russian Ukrainian conflict piece. Keeping in mind it's 2014 is the is the latest that that book goes. So it isn't, it isn't current. But just, you know, I would love I would love to hear your input about it and you know, make sure that you like leave reviews and things. Authors love those. And Elias, I want to thank you for having me on today. I'm really excited that you let me be here and and chat for you for this last hour and a half.

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:27

Oh, no. I mean, you you were fantastic guests. I said, I had to bring you back, especially on a couple books I got saw to say, I had to have you back. Because he it was phenomenal, it was wonderful, and I don't always go by the numbers. Once I want to start pushing my SEO and outreach on steroids, I'm sure this is gonna be something that a lot of people's gonna like to um look. I there's a lot of value here. And if you choose to be negative, it's because you're being disingenuous. I'm just gonna say it's right now. Like, there's even some disagreement, which I don't mind. I I don't mind disagreement. And I always been one of those that's okay, then give me a Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:01

I think disagreement, there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:03

But if you're gonna disagree and shut it down with no other idea, then I'm gonna double down because wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you know, you just don't like it because of what? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Then then I double down. But if you got an idea, say, oh, that's true. I didn't think about it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:17

I didn't look at it in that way before, right?

unknown: 1:28:19

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:20

Right. I said that okay, that this does expose a couple of blind spots I gotta pay attention to. You know, things I I'm willing to modify. And look, and that's the thing. I'm pretty open-minded. And the only thing I want to disagree with Terry a little bit is uh 62 year olds, they can be malleable, but the the the and this is the good part about it, it's at their discretion. Yes, they choose to be malleable.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:41

Yeah, I think I guess that's that's true. It's it's harder though, the older you get. You do get kind of more set in in your ways, you get more set in what's comfortable for you, and someone brings up something you need to change, and it's like, I don't even know that I have the energy for that anymore. I just think it's younger people are more they're in a space where learning is what they're doing. And I think we would be you could spend the same amount of energy working with teenagers in high school teaching them debate classes, and the same amount of energy teaching 60-year-olds, and you're gonna have better results over here with the young kids, just because they're more they're just in that space in their life where they're still learning, where they're still open, where they still haven't made positive decisions about things yet, where they don't have these really, really strong opinions that that have years and years and years of of bias and experience behind them. So that's why I say that. It's not that I'm not capable of changing. I know I am, and I have, and I will, and I hope to continue. I just know it was easier when I was 15.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:50

No, of course. Yeah, see, that's that's another conundrum. Yeah, because you already have your setways, and of you know what's harder, you know what's much harder than learning. Unlearning.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:01

Unlearning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:30:02

Oh. Yeah. I had to unlearn some things that oh I just wanted to just throw I just want to throw things out the windows, make myself feel good. Right. A little so frustrated because those habits are so ingrained.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:14

Yeah, and it's hard. It's hard to move them. It's hard to move the needle on something that you've been doing your whole life.

SPEAKER_03: 1:30:19

So yeah, especially if it's decades plus, you know, I'm sure you come on a number with it, and I'm sure there's a correlation for it. Uh yeah, it it it it it it is tough, you know. So I also gotta acknowledge that it's not all you know, oh yeah, you can learn everything one shot, even if you're a thousand-year-old dead body. Okay, dead bodies can't learn anything.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:38

There is there's always a cutoff point, Elias.

SPEAKER_03: 1:30:40

Right. So, you know, exactly. You see that that has to be being Pollyanna and being delusional and crazy. Yes, you can say that. Yeah, yeah, you can say that. I won't argue with you there. All right, this has been a supremely phenomenal conversation, actually, one of the best in the season, in my personal opinion. I don't care what you think of that one always. Actually, no, I I I I want you to see if you agree with me or not. Let me be serious. You think this is one of the best ones? Um because this is one of the longer ones for sure, but this is this has so much wisdom and value, right? This is the terror whether you pick team alias, team Terry, don't do that. Just see how we both made it great. And what and what we could, you know, what improvements can be made, you know. Just think of big picture, big picture. Don't be tribal, say team team alias or team Terry. You know, I'm sure bookworms are gonna go more with you. The political people's probably gonna go well. But no, no, I I don't want any of that, any of that. Big picture. Come on, you can do this, big picture, step back, step back. All right, so go to her site, all right. Just go there, get her books, give her a review. She's a very friendly, very sociable person, okay? And she has all kinds of social media that that you can think of. Really? I mean, this is this is to the point that she makes me feel like a boomer in this in this category. I'm much more selective in my social media, and I'm supposed to be the younger one. I'm supposed to be open to social media. That's why I can't stereotype, put everybody in the bucket. I'm more conservative in my social media. Some of them I don't like TikTok. I don't give a rat's behind about that one. Maybe until the deal is done, but even that, even that could be flawed. I don't know. My TikTok opinion has been changing, you know, just as quickly as chameleon changes colors at this point. I just say I was anti-it. Now I'm kind of for it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:25

Well, I have a TikTok and I don't know what I'm doing with it, and I held off trying to learn it because I was afraid it was gonna disappear. And now that it looks like it's not gonna disappear, I think I need to figure it out. So we'll see. That might be that might be like next year's goal is to figure out what TikTok is and how to use it effectively.

SPEAKER_03: 1:32:46

You know what? That's the same exact reason why I just held off on this. I don't know if this thing is gonna stay or not. And then you know what? If it goes away, I'm not gonna miss it. Right. So that's why I didn't decide to go to it. Well, you 16-year-olds, you all caught a panic attack. Yeah. You Gen Zers. Yeah, absolutely. You know, you know, you can't be worshipping technology like that. That that that is pretty sinful. They go, this is where it's time wearing my fake um priest hat. I'm I'm not that religious, that's why I call it. Go to her website, Terrym Brown.com. It's her name, okay? And you'll see it. So if some if you have spelling issues, you just copy and paste.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:22

Yep, it's Terry with one R, guys. That'll help. Terry with one R. Terry M. Brown.

SPEAKER_03: 1:33:27

Yep. You know, and go to her social medias as well. Pickwater, pick your poison. It's even Pinterest. I don't I don't even know who's using Pinterest at this point. I'm I I stopped using it a long time ago. I got bored of it real quick. That's just me, but she she got so much social media, pick your poison. There's a YouTube, I love that one. Facebook, eh, it's okay. Twitter, I'm not calling it that that letter. Blah. Lincoln, pretty good. I like I it grow, it grew on me. Just, you know, rapid fire opinions of it should, you know, pick your poison. Okay. So just options for you. It's not being filtered by me. If it was up to me, there'll be no Pinterest, there'll be no TikTok, and there'll be no no Twitter. Uh, that's just me. But I look, I'm just doing what the guests, whatever information the guest provides me. That's me being fair and balanced. You know, don't be led by your ego and by your own biases, because forget it. Um, I could have just done this whole show by myself if that was the case. And it won't be as interesting. Pretend that I'm oh, don't tell me where to change. No, I'm kidding. Just provide your feedback, seriously. Provide feedback, because I do want to grow. I'm I'm in that space where I could change in. So it's so so is Terry. But this is more about this podcast, and you go check her stuff out as well. All of it, all her pot. I mean, she has so much. What's it the book hook?

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:46

Yeah, the book hook. Online for authors.

SPEAKER_03: 1:34:50

Okay, she's in three. I'm just trying to find, I'm just trying to find one other job I could be a well-paid contributor for other podcasts, maybe someone political or maybe somewhere spiritual. I don't know. I don't know. Um, people don't think I'm spiritual enough. That's up for debate. What does spiritual look like? Do I gotta do Namaste and be meek, let's only beat me to death? That's spiritual to you, then then you're insane. Then then then, you know, that's what I'm gonna say about that. You know, I could ramble on for for a while. I can go to the case.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:19

I think you're getting tired, Elias, and I know I am.

SPEAKER_03: 1:35:21

Ah, yeah. There you go. That's my green light to end it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:25

All right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:35:26

So for my podcast, give a like, share, subscribe. If you feel generous, donate$3 a month. I'll start having exclusive episodes. You have your own emotes, you get a shout out, and trust me, you're gonna see me go on leash. You think I'm crazy now. Biden pain well, it's gonna be even more exciting. Uh maybe, you know, you this it'll be to your liking. I don't know. I I experiment. And I'll definitely read the action version of the Bible. Yeah, that it exists. I actually bought one myself because I think it needs visuals, and Bibles confusing, it's not the easiest book to understand, people. It really is. If you take it too literal, you miss out so much. Yeah, I know symbolism, and all that. Terry knows about all those literary terms even more than me. You know, go, you know, she's a literary expert. Don't talk to me about you know alliterations and all of that. I don't know what that is, but if you're trying to ask me a super reedy nerdy question, go to Terry, leave me alone. You don't make me look stupid. You did a good job, leave me alone. No, seriously, she she's a go-to when it comes to literacy literacy authors, all that, creating a book. She's done it. I mean, you should talk to her, not me. Um, you talk to me about politics, my research and that, I'm more comfortable doing that. So see, different, you know, different people have different strengths. And just like she said, if everyone look look like me, talk like me, act like me, or her, this world be very boring and there'll be no point in conversation. Maybe we're different, even if it causes disagreements, but hey, you know, sometimes disagreements is more entertaining than did agreements. Oh yeah, I agree. Oh yeah, I agree. Oh yeah, I agree. It gets boring after a while. All right. And then for the review, for Apple Podcasts, leave an honest review. Uh happy that I don't have a perfect five star because I think that's more genuine as opposed to some podcasts that do, I think that they did some deal or something. I think it's fair. That's just my opinion. You know who you are. I'm not gonna call you out unless you start a verbal war with me. Then I'll call you out and start saying, oh, this one did this because T4 speed. I I I know I know who does what. I've been on different shows, okay? And that's all I'm gonna say about that. I like honesty. You know, I got a one star for it, a four-star for it. I prefer that than all five stars, because I think that's that's pretty fake to me. All right, and then for those of you on Rumble, you got to wait a little bit. People who follow me on Facebook and Twitter or Twitter, this is your by sometime early 2026. I'm taking that down because I feel like Twitter doesn't serve my purpose. Lincoln serves my purpose more because I've more professional people. And I don't know, Twitter has become such a sewer, in my opinion. Yeah. And and I just think I just I need to evolve better than that. Look, I don't mind finding the sewers, but there's times you get sick of tired of being sick of tired doing the same crap.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:13

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 1:38:14

So I need to evolve at some point. Um, I ain't gonna be young forever, all right? Let's that's just reality. So, you know, all that after a while, you just gotta use your time and energy more intelligently. All right, and you know, I'm not gonna be 30 something forever, okay? I'm just not, and that's just reality. So, whenever you complete this long but wisdom-filled audio or visual journey, you have a blessed day, afternoon, or night.