336-Hiking 2,200 Miles At 72 With Rand Timmerman Esq.

We sit down with Rand R. Tinnerman, Esquire, who hiked the 2,200-mile Appalachian Trail at 72 and explains how age, discipline, and faith can coexist in one brutal, beautiful journey. We also get real about elder respect, recovery from alcoholism, and the quiet moments in nature that can rebuild a person from the inside out.
• why respect for elders matters and what “grace” looks like in daily life 
• what it takes to thru-hike the Appalachian Trail in your 70s 
• training habits, pace, and why mountains rewrite your expectations 
• trail culture, odd encounters, and the community you meet out there 
• spiritual experiences on the trail, including pain relief and deep peace 
• Vietnam, trauma, and the long road to sobriety 
• the 12-step framework and building trust in a higher power 
• surviving storms, handling wildlife risks, and laughing through discomfort 
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Transcript

Grace For Elders And Late-Life Grit

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Oh, thank you, Elias. Yeah. Um 80-year-old man now. I did hike the Appalachian Trail when I was 72. The Appalachian Trail goes from Springer Mountain, Georgia, 2200 miles up to the northern part of Maine, Cottahotton. Elevation changes. That's almost a half a million feet up and down. I think it was June 18th, 2018. And I always leave early.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Welcome everyone to Politically High Tech with your host, Elias. I'm still alive. I know I haven't been uploading as much. I'm still alive. But I want to talk about life and age. And I'm not going to be very political. This is more a spiritual episode. So if you're tired of political me, well, be happy. It breaks. Or just keep replaying this episode if you want to deal with the political version of Elias. Because I can be very political and social technological. It's not one of those episodes. Spiritual and elders who could do great things rejoice. I believe not, I believe. It's a fact that I think we're one of the worst countries when it comes to elder treatment. That's a hot take, but I believe so. Um, a lot of countries poor or not, I think they take care of the elders so much better even with low resources, and they respect them very well. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that um you should call them out, but you know, physically beat them up just because you disagree. No, no, that's definitely not it. And shouting at them, you know, possibly knowing that they could get a heart attack? No, not that either. Just give them some grace. I know some are difficult, believe me. I know. I I've interacted with a lot of um elders on the side, especially on church, so they could be a handful, but some are amazing and they could be our source of wisdom. What am I saying? That because I have a guest here. Nor is not a random mumble jumble kind of intro. I have a guest here who has actually did a crazy journey and not at age 20 or 30. We talking about early 70s, okay? Me in early 70s, I probably want to order me a smart king and protect myself against the crazy youth. I hope they come with a smart king when I'm elder, so I can just lift my hand, have the king beat the youth that wants to abuse the elders. That's what I'm thinking about. I'm not thinking about some trail and go on a bike journey and all of that. Maybe I would. I'm probably a little crazy for everything about if I'm super bored. Maybe I'm borderline insane. But enough about enough about me here. So I have a guest here, and he's not just a great, great elder, he also has some legal credentials. If you pay attention to his name, as Esquire. You know that's uh legal credential right there. That means he does some lowering. What kind of lowering work he's doing? What kind of legal work has he done? We're gonna find out. We're gonna find out how to guess express that, okay? Because it's not the normal, you know, uh it's part of it, but it's more interesting than you think. It's not just a normal corporate lawyer, fight for big company, you know, fancy suits, all that. I'm sure some of that has happened as well, but that's not the whole picture, you know. Have you watched Suits? You know, Suits is a great show, in my opinion. I think you should check it out. It's an old show, uh like 2010, like early 2010 is over, but you get what I'm talking about. Very well-paid lawyers, a bit arrogant, a bit a-ho. Yeah, I'm keeping it clean. Smart Alec, uh keeping it very clean here because if the guest keeps it clean, the host has to keep it clean. That's the thing, and not everything has to be me shouting every explorative crazy word. So trust me, there's episodes for that, but this is not one of them. It's gonna be more decent, it's gonna be free for and definitely spiritual. You're gonna learn something here if you pay attention. So, with that out of the way, let's introduce Rand R.

Hiking The Appalachian Trail At 72

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Tineman Esquire. So, introduce yourself. What do you want the listeners and the viewers to know about you?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Oh, thank you, Elias. Yeah, well, I am an 80-year-old man now. I did hike the Appalachian Trail when I was 72. The Appalachian Trail goes from Springer Mountain, Georgia, 2200 miles up to the northern part of Maine, Cottahotton Mountain in Maine. 2,200 miles, 600 mountains, 465,000 feet of elevation changes. That's almost a half a million feet up and down. It is gorgeous, it is mostly rocky, it is challenging beyond belief, a lot of critters, a lot of bears, snakes, all kinds of stuff. I wrote a book about it called A Spiritual Passage, and it has in there, it's in a journal format, Elias. A reader can vicariously hike the Appalachian Trail because we tell what happened, where we went each day, what mountains we went over. There's uh 500 pictures in it. So you can actually experience it, you know, vicariously by taking a look at my book. But the the amazing part was how the heck did we actually do that? And why did we do it in our early 70s? And I blame that on my brother's wife. Yeah. Anyway, basic background, I grew up in upstate New York in a little place called Adams, with way more cows than people. All my family men were warriors, World War II. My dad was a Mustang pilot. When I was five years old, I realized my dad was walking around on crutches because he had polio. Probably a hundred people in our little village of 2,500 people had polio. People don't realize polio was horrible. My father had two cousins that got polio and died the same day. He spent a year in the hospital, eight months in an iron lung, if you can imagine that. I mean, I went to bed hungry, we had enough food. I didn't wear new clothes until I was new clothes until I was a teenager. And I blame God for that. My mother was pretty religious. My younger brother, Ron, who was a year younger than me, that hiked the trail with me, took to the God thing and maintained it his whole life. He ended up being a bishop in the Mormon church. And I ended up going in the Marine Corps and going off to Vietnam, more as a way to just escape. And my brother had already gone. I did go to college. I was the first person in my family to go to college, but I was only there for about a little over a year. And I was working as a janitor from midnight to eight and pin setter in a bowling alley, and I was poor, and I'm and I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. And I got drunk one night in a bar, and they were talking about the first Marine Division going into Vietnam. And I, for me, that was my version of the French Foreign Legion, Elias. And the next day I left college, and nine months later I'm in a rice patty in North Vietnam, almost up to the DMZ, up above the Nang, thinking I might have made a mistake with that decision. But my brother and I both survived. I was a machine gunner on a helicopter for a while. I did a lot of different things in Vietnam. They made me an officer and temporarily said, well, you can go back to being a corporal or you can and get out or you can be a real officer. And I decided that was a challenge I wanted to try because I knew it was going to be really hard in the Marine Corps. But I am I was a first lieutenant when I got out of the Marine Corps. But as a result of doing that, I ran into a buddy who sent me off to the Naval Justice School for lawyers. And I ended up being a military legal officer. So the Marine Corps damn near got me killed at least 20 times. And then it gave me a career. What are the odds of that? What butterfly flaps those wings? You know what I mean? It was a spiritual thing, even though at that point I did not believe in a higher power at all. I just I could not possibly my first battle in Vietnam, and I looked around and I saw what was happening, and I thought the men that were with me that were getting killed and wounded were better men than me. And I realized I was gonna have to fight like a maniac if I had any chance to survive at all. And I gave up any thoughts of being a spiritual person. So that turned out to be a problem later on, and my whole life did change. I also was an alcoholic, as it turned out. At least I had that tendency for sure. So when we came back from the war, my brother met Edie. And Edie was why we hiked the trail. That's where I'm going with this. Okay, it's a little convoluted, but anyway. So Ronnie comes back, and our mother's best friend Edie, who's 14 years older than Ron, is a very attractive lady. And my brother dated her. And on the first date, she was a divorced mother of seven. And against all odds, they fell madly in love with each other, and they got involved in the Mormon church. They actually moved to Utah. My brother became a bishop. He did funerals, weddings, you know, religious services of all kinds. So he never lost his spirituality. But when Edie died, leaving him with the seven kids, right? 27 grandchildren, and 30 great-grandchildren, right? Because if you join the latter-day, the Church of Latter-day Saints, they promote getting married and having families, right? So they get married very young, they fool around like rabbits, and the next thing you know, there's babies everywhere, right? That's kind of how that works. Then Edie had a massive stroke in 2011. And some people get better after strokes, but she didn't. It took six years, but she ended up dying. And when she did, my brother was just so overwhelmed with grief that he decided to hike the Appalachian Trail. And when he told me that, I thought, that's that's insane. But I went out to Utah and we hiked in the desert out there. But you know, we were both in our early 70s, but we had both maintained a daily regime of physical activity, you know, our jobs. He was a commercial pilot, he ended up being a commercial pilot, mostly for freight, although he did fly tourists through the Grand Canyon. That had to be a hell of a ride. Um, so he had done some pretty cool things too, but and he did a lot of hiking. I ran 26 marathons, I did cross-country scree races all over North America in the winter, because up in upstate New York, you're not going to be running in the winter. So we would ski. And so we both had a pretty good base. I would say that even though we were in our early 70s, we were probably the equivalent of men in their 50s physically that have taken good care of themselves for the most part. So it was it was doable potentially,

From Vietnam To A Legal Career

SPEAKER_01 11:30

at least. I didn't think we could actually do it, but about three million people hike the Appalachian Trail every year, but other they're most of them are just doing a little part of it, right? About 3,000 try to do the whole thing, about 17% on average do it. They're called through hikers. So we're talking about 450, 500 people a year. So it's, I mean, it's it's an amazing challenge. I'll just say it that way.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Oh, you said a lot right there, listeners. If you I'm not sure you caught something, but I did exercise people as a key. Because if you do it, uh if you try to achieve this, I don't wanna, you know, you may accuse me of fat shaming, that's fine. But if you're gonna do this the first time at 400 pounds, you're mobile, I would highly recommend it. Lose that fat, and then you know, then I would say give it a shot. But I think you need some exercise, you know, definitely some exercise, maybe some daily routine, something that's doable. I'm not saying for you to become like a super athlete. Um that's what I'm saying here, but definitely some exercise is needed. That's a message to myself as well. That's something I've been trying to do more because, yeah, uh my best shape right now. So I gotta get that together. This is not just for you, this is also for your host as well. So I'm calling myself out as well with all that. So it's exercise. That's all I'm saying here. Because I do not picture someone who is over 400 pounds, very immobile, cannot move, is gonna achieve that. I just don't, unless I don't know God's miracle, and that is extremely rare. That's all I'm gonna say. And I will not gamble on that, especially if you know your faith is not at its strongest. And that's a lot of people, by the way. Even those who call themselves Christians, I don't care what denomination you come from, one umbrella or religion, but when it comes to faith level, that's only certain people that have that kind of faith. I'm not one of them, but I'm trying to get there. So I'm not gonna talk too long about that, but you know, some exercise I think is recommended. I don't know if you want to second that, but I've just gotta say that before we can achieve anything, even you know, a fraction of the craziness that this man has brother, his brother achieved. Okay, and trust me, yeah, I've been to upstate several times. It is not the easiest of terrain. And I felt, you know, I I went to Buffalo, and all I'm gonna say is this I I went there since I already felt a little bit of the chill. I said I could imagine winter. I'll be buried in snow, I'll become a new caveman, the caveman of the modern day. And so probably in year 3000 discovers me. I'm the new caveman. And probably like I'll uh for those of you who are listening to audio, I'll like a person's trying to escape, like about to claw you to death, but I got caught with the storm, and probably that storm was negative 50 degrees. So, yeah, living in upstate New York is not for the faint of heart. I'm just gonna tell you that, right? Especially deep tomorrow, like the Buffalo, Syracuse regions and the Ronduc. Yeah, this was New York is very New York-esque. All the other states you could love or hate us, it doesn't matter. Is this a very New York-esque episode for the deepest upstate to the most downstate as it gets? Uh, I represent the big apple, so again, it's very downstate, probably with the exception of Long Island and Staten Island. But you know, people want to reject Staten Island. That's a whole other story. I'm not gonna get into that. That's something to do with politics, and something to do with that, so that's a whole nother that's a whole nother beast. And we're not gonna get into that. That's more petty stuff. That's put petty political stuff in local issues. So I mean a simple question. Why the heck did you start? That's that's my that's my first question. You already answered the Appalachian Trail for Dummies question, so I already checked that off. Yeah, what got you started this? Because you can just say, ah, I'm too old for this, screw this.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Well, yeah, that's a good point. And actually, the first day, if you look at my book and the first pictures of snow on the ground, it was a blizzard the first day. And you were you're right. I lived in Adams. We averaged 200 inches of snow every winter when I was growing up as a kid. But yeah, you don't expect that in Georgia. Although the northern part of Georgia is pretty mountainous, obviously, and that's where it starts the Springer Mountain. Yeah, I didn't actually think we could do it. I was more trying to mollify my brother. I I was four years sober at that point. I'm over 12 years now. Uh we hiked the trail in 2018, so it's been eight years, but I I was mostly thinking that I was just gonna stay there and be with my brother. And uh I wrote in the book Two Weeks Max, and when my brother read one the first edition, he goes, You didn't think we could do it. I said, No, I did not think we could do it. Those first few days it was just believable. I, you know, I was a runner until I was 55, and then I had to have my knee replaced, and then I started doing a lot of walking, and when I knew we were gonna do the trail, I started walking. I was walking five, six miles a day, and I upped it up to eight or nine. So when I got there, I thought, well, I'd be all right, you know, but oh my god, you don't you forget about how hard it is to hike in the mountains. You know, I can still, I was still doing 21, 22 minute miles hiking in the flatlands, so to speak, but you get in the mountains. If you can do it a mile, maybe a mile and a quarter, or a really good pace, a mile and a half, an hour, that's a lot. So, you know, you start out and you're gonna hike. If you're gonna go, we averaged 11 miles a day, and we had two stretches where we went, one was 30 and the other was 33 days without taking a break, which is not wise. But it was it was incredibly difficult. My brother and I are not big men, Elias. We're only we're both about five foot eight, 170, 175 pounds. There were not any obese people on the Appalachian Trail. There was one guy that might have been 40 pounds overweight, and he actually is far, I don't think he made the whole way, but I'm pretty sure he made it to to West Virginia, which is roughly halfway. And he did he had a routine where we would hike for 35 minutes, rest for five minutes, and then so we would see him, but then he would never my brother and I never stopped. The only time we would stop is when we were on top of a mountain, and then we would because I knew at my age, if I stop, it's gonna be harder to get started than anything else. He just keep moving. Plus, we're both military guys, right? We both had a lot of grit and determination, but I really didn't think that we would be able to do the whole thing. A lot of there's one lady, there's 865 steps from the lodge at Springer Mountain to get up to start the trail. So you got all these people with these packs on, right? Climbing up those stairs at the beginning. We started on March 22nd. There was one lady, she looked pretty good. She got up the top step, turned around, said, I can't do this. And she stopped right there. So it's not for the faint of heart, and you should definitely need to do some training. And my brother had done a lot of preparation for it. I was shocked. He'd gotten the maps, he'd got all the gear, he had it pretty well thought out, and we actually took two vehicles. So I met him in Springer Mountain, and actually his oldest son, who was 62 at that time, Rick, came. And there's roads crossing the Appalachian Trail about every somewhere between 10 and 15 miles. Now that's not true, like in the Smoky Mountains, uh, an area called pre-there's sections where you can go 35, 40, 70 miles. You're gonna have to stay overnight on the trail. I like to brag, I slept in a tent every night on the Appalachian Trail, which is true, but a lot of the times my truck was right there, right? Because we're on some kind of a road where it goes across the Appalachian Trail. So that meant during the day we could carry a day pack, and then Ronnie mostly went south, and I mostly went north. So we actually didn't hike together. And then we back on the trail and then just start out the next day from wherever we were. And you can figure it out by looking at the book. There was actually people there that did the trail, and we were like, How are these people? They'd show up in the morning and they'd be all like, you know, not iron clothes, but clean clothes, they smell nice, and you know, after a few days, you don't smell good. And there were people using RVs that had drivers, you know, so they weren't actually sleeping on the trail every night and so on and so on. Most of them were in their 50s and 60s that were doing that. A few. There was a lot of women, Elias. It was amazing. I'm gonna say in the beginning, until we got to to West Virginia, there was probably more women than men. There was a lady out there with her oldest child, she had her four children. The oldest one was like 16, 12, something, the youngest one was six. And I'm thinking like child abuse. But these kids seem to be, you know, okay with it. But once you get to West Virginia, then that's a halfway point. After that, it was pretty well thinned out, and not as not near as many women as there was before. But and you meet all kinds of people. It's uh it's the people are just amazing, and they're all a little bit off, right? One night my brother says to me, Bro, there's a lot of weird people out here. And I went, and we didn't talk that much at night because usually we're so damn tired, right? We just eat and get ready to go to bed and stuff and get in the sleeping bag, whatever. But I said, Yeah, Ronnie, uh, I mean, everybody out here is weird. And he gets offended with me. He goes, Rand, what we're not you and I are normal, we're not weird. I go, Ronnie, everybody out here is weird. We're weird. Normal people don't do this. They

Training And Trail Community Realities

SPEAKER_01 21:55

don't get up in the morning and hike up and down mountains all day long, they don't fall down every day. Like I did. They don't break their hiking poles like I broke four of them. I mean, it's it's a son of a gun. All kinds of critters, all kinds of people. There was a young guy in the beginning. He was like, he looked like a samurai soldier. Right? He had the robes and everything. He had the bun on his head. He was, I don't know, he might have been he was probably Japanese. So he was short, like five foot four. He was the most handsome man I've ever met. I mean, this guy could have been a movie star. He just looked a very handsome Asian man, built like a spark, you know, like a fire hydrant. I mean, tough guy, very powerful man, obviously. He could have a sword in his robes. I don't know, but he was carrying a full pack and he had the poles to hike with. And one day, his trail name was Half Slow, and my trail name was Ranbo. And I'm limping, right? My right leg is a half inch shorter than my left because of the war and other things. You know, a motorcycle accident. I don't have any, it's been bone on bone on my right leg forever. So it ground down to half inch shorter. So I like to brag him the limpiest man that ever hiked the Appalachian Trail. So this Oriental guy's name was trail name was half slow. And one day he comes out to me, he says, Ranva, stand still. Take my hands. I'm going to pray for you. Because you're limping really bad. Your knees are hurting really bad. I'm gonna I'm gonna fix your knees for you. So we're standing there holding hands and he's praying, right? And hikers are walking by us in the beginning, and and like two weeks in, and they're looking at us like pretty weird, right? This old man and this young guy. Anyway, and he's praying, and all of a sudden I hear him say, Macbeth. And I realize he's quoting Shakespeare. I said, Okay, I have slow up. I think we're good, you know. But darn it all, when I walked away, the pain was gone. I kid you not. Now it didn't stay gone, but I don't know. Just those types of spiritual experiences, if you will. By the time we did the trail, Elias, I had become a spiritual man. I had a really big problem with alcohol.

Alcohol Recovery And A Higher Power

SPEAKER_01 24:12

My late 50s, early 60s. I had been a litigator. You asked me what kind of attorney I was. I was a damn good one, actually. People would ask me, what kind of attorney are you? Oh, I'm a damn good one. I was a litigator. I mean, I was in court all the time. I did all kinds of trials, mostly criminal in the beginning, and then I did a murder trial, and then upstate New York, we hardly ever had murder trials, and that got me a lot of publicity. And then after that, my poverty issues were taken care of. And I had a I had a good career. I ended up interviewing the director of the FBI lab in the late eight 1980s. I subpoenaed her because they were using DNA as evidence because it was a circumstantial case. There was no proof that they were there. So they used the the DNA. So I subpoenaed her. She came up, cross-examined her because I said the DA, I know I subpoenaed her, but why don't you put her on as your I did it on purpose because I wanted to be able to cross-examine her, right? So why don't you put her on as your witness? He said, You want me to? I said, sure, why not? So he did. That helped me out actually. And so when I cross-examined her, she admitted that the case, the in our case, the test was flawed and that I had to be thrown out. And I asked her, I said, Have you testified a lot about this? Because I mean, this is a big deal, right? She said, Nope, this is the first time. So it didn't get much publicity because we're up in cow country, upstate New York, but that was one of the highlights of my career for sure. And so I was a litigator, I had a lot of fun doing that, I was very successful at it. Alcohol didn't really affect that too much. I was too busy to even. But I later on, the you know, the wives are gone, the kids are all grown up, and uh and it got to be a real problem. If you are an alcoholic, it means you are addicted to alcohol, your body metabolizes differently. A lot of people don't know that. And you create an excess of acetone, and that's what makes an alcoholic differently. I couldn't, I could not understand why. I could do all these other things, I could run all these marathons, ski all these races, do all these things, be a good, you know, attorney, uh, three kids that I ended up raising because their mother remarried and moved to Oregon and left them with me, which has helped me out a lot, actually. And I took all that stuff very seriously, so alcohol didn't really play a role until later on when everybody was gone and I'm on my own, and my uh some of my demons from the war came back and nightmares and stuff like that. And I didn't, we were untreated, of course. PTSD hadn't even been invented in my generation. So, and I started drinking way too much, and I just couldn't stop. And I just couldn't understand that. Then I got into a recovery program that required me to make a connection with a higher power, or I would get drunk again. That's what my sponsor told me. And by the time he told me that, I believed him. Because I had been in hospitals on suicide watch, I did all the crazy things that alcoholics do are out of control when they're out of control. And damn near didn't make it, but God had a gave me a desire to stop, and that led me to a 12-step program that's for alcoholics to recover who like to remain anonymous. I'll say it that way. So, and I did a 12-step program, and in the middle of that God I didn't believe in did a couple things and took my obsession away, and I became a believer without any hesitation or doubt. And then after 13 months, a guy asked me to help him, like my sponsor had helped me. And I went and told Billy, my sponsor, I said, This guy asked me to be a sponsee. It's his sponsor, and he wants to be my sponsee. And I'm thinking Billy will tell me, you're not ready. And Billy said, Oh no, Rand, you're ready. You got a lot of bad experience. And now you got some good experience. See, Billy, my sponsor, knew that I was the kind of guy, a war veteran, you know, I'd been successful in many things, that if I was helping other men, I would probably have a much better chance of not drinking again. And that's what happened. And now it's I just passed 12 years, Miss May 6. And I've never been without somebody else to work with ever since then. So I developed a relationship with a higher power that could take away my difficulties. Not the weight, not the actual difficulty, but the weight of them. And he took away my obsession and some other difficulties I had. I had medical problems, I've had all kinds of situations since then. But my point is that I will never be the spiritual man my brother was, or the way he did it, but in my own right, I did become a spiritual person. I was transformed by a higher power that wanted me to stop drinking so I could help other men. I believe that with all my heart and soul. So by the time we did the trail, I was on a whole different plane for sure. The other thing that did for me, Elias, was that the book is called a spiritual passage, right? It's because the trail itself is a spiritual adventure, for sure. But then my recovery was also a spiritual journey. So in the book, every second or third chapter, I talk about how I did each step and what Billy taught me to do and how to pray and have a connection with a higher power and some of the difficulties I went through, and you know, questioning and all that kind of stuff. It just changed my life entirely. So that's part of why it's called a spiritual passage. And then on the trail, way, way bigger. For a long time, it was just big enough to take the obsession away. But I don't know, it's it's hard to explain it to some extent. I was standing on the mountain, I had crossed the Hudson River, and I'm in New Jersey, right? And I'm standing on a mountain early in the morning, there's nobody around, nobody around. There's two raptors flying in the sky. I'm standing there, and I just had this moment of just me and my higher power enjoying the creations that he did, and me really it felt like I was the only living human being. Just me and my higher power, and I'm standing there, I'm watching these raptors. There is no sign of another human being in the whole universe, right? There's no contrails in the sky, there's no noise, no nothing. I'm in New Jersey on top of a mountain. There's millions of people all around me, right? I don't hear anything except nature. And I just was totally at peace. And I reached, oh my god, my God is so much bigger than I ever imagined. And then I looked, and about 50 miles away, I can just barely see the top of the skyscrapers in New York City. I go, oh yeah, I'm not here by myself. There's proof of mankind. It's hard to explain, but it's just one of those moments where God just reassured me that I was on the right path and doing the right thing and uh for my brother and for myself. And it was uh amazing journey. Amazing journey. Changed my life, made me a lot more grateful, right? So I'm rambling on here a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

No, I don't mind it. It's a good it's a great story, you know. I'm the type of host, I like to you know hear a great stuff. If I know it's great, I'm just gonna be quiet. If it's something that I know it's going way off track, that's the only time I gently um interject. But no, this is just great stuff. I hope you're listening, people, because this is inspirational. You kind of answer half my questions, like the usual spiritual. Now I'm gonna just flip both of them in some of the best parts, unless you want to elaborate further on that. The other question I have is I'm just spinning, I'm just twisting some of these questions just to make it interesting. Uh, what was the most actually no? I want to ask it this way. You actually already answered like the white or some of my spiritual moments, like your leg was free from pain, and you had this time with God when you feel like nothing else existed. But so, of course, I saw a skyscraper way far away, but it probably looked a very tiny way. Yeah, perspective is so interesting. It's so interesting. Uh I did like baby trails, but uh, some of us just can't put into words. Uh experience it, people. That's the best one I'm gonna say, experience it. But I got some of the idea of what you're saying, at least personally. And yeah, I'm gonna be a little selfish. Experience it, then you're getting it. Some things just have to experience it firsthand. You know, a book, words can only convey the idea so much. Like, ah, I get it. Oh, this is what Rand and Crazy Elias was talking about. Some things just gotta experience firsthand, people. That's all I'm saying. And I encourage you to do so. You know, try at least once, people. It will it'll it will change on me. I definitely became more grateful because before I was just more in, I was very impatient. It's of course we didn't have New York, everything's so fast, we should expect things as fast. Once you deal with slow, oh you flag your world is ending. Oh, okay, you hairy, uh move, what are you doing? Yeah, I'm a certain type of a of a snobbish New Yorker. Sue me. Uh at least I'm honest. I own I own that. But um, yeah, I mean, it definitely got me, it got me better, not you know, not all the way. So I mean, now it takes like a really big, like stand still kind of grit lock was we get just give me a little like that. But slow motion is like that person's elder, maybe that person's lost, you know, and I can't be rushing all the time. I mean, what I'm gonna rush is just home, just to go home, you know. So it it shifts your perspective, especially tough. That's why I think toughness or going through a tough journey is a need, I will say, especially for men, it shifts things, it's definitely gonna shift something, uh, you know, and I encourage you to do it. Um, and I maybe I might want to do a trail. Definitely not as crazy as the Apple Chan trail, but definitely a starter. I'll probably climb a mountain and then go back down. I'll consider that achievement, and then maybe expand from there because I've done it a few times, like a few of the trails, whatever. I tend to enjoy them. It's tiring, it'll beat you physically, it'll definitely waken you spiritually, or maybe beat it down depending on who you are. But you know what? Sometimes you get beat down, you know, that's when spirit pops up. You know, it's like that second wind, at least to some people. Everyone has unique journeys and differences, and you know, there's like wasn't really connected to God for a while, but all journeys are unique. Your younger brother was connected to God much more, but you know, everyone's journey is unique and it serves a purpose. God made everybody different. Not everyone's gonna be a freaking bishop of the Mormon church, that's for sure. Um everyone's gonna do that. So he he hit the religious, he hit the religious lottery on that one.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

And all and oh, yeah, no, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Yeah, Ronnie had a really deep spiritual thing in the book, too, or in the trail. There's a picture in the book, not the one that Ronnie saw of what looks like a halo on its side. And Father's Day in 2018, we were up in the Shenandoah National Park, and it was a really dark day. We actually ran into a ranger, and then and Ronnie was really just feeling the pain of loss of E.D. And it was a bad day for him. And he came around a corner, and this was the only light that day that showed up in the forest, and there was this halo that was super bright. It scared my brother. It looked like there was something in the halo, and it scared my brother to the point. He turned around, he thought about running away, and then he thought, no, I've never done that. And then, and there would look like there was a figure in it, could have been Jesus, Buddha, who the heck knows, be whatever you want it to be. But then Ronnie ended up having a conversation with Edie, and she's saying, I'm here with dad, we know what you're doing, we're watching you, and Rand, and you're doing the right thing, and you're don't quit. And I love you, and it'll be all right. You're gonna be with us someday, do this. And I don't know, I can't even hardly put it in words, it had a profound effect on my brother. And his a lot of his emotional pain was dissipated on that day, and from then on it was a kind of a different thing, like we were more doing it for them, you know, to honor them. Like you were talking about honoring your elders, you know, honoring my dad standing there with his crutches, having spent his whole life, adult life, as a crippled by polio, even though he'd been a Mustang pilot during World War II, you know. And I got over my anger at God if there was one for sure. I had a night in the in the the smoky mountain Cleman's Dome. There's a section south of it where the trail is about the ridge that you're on is about 12 to 15 feet wide, and I pitched my tent there because I got caught in a thunderstorm, and on both sides it drops off like thousands of feet straight down. And before I got in the tent, Elias, I'm standing there taking a leak, looking down because I know I'm in a really bad spot, right? And I can see trees behind me. I mean, I'm right on the edge of a cliff, basically, right? That's 12 feet wide, and that's where the trail goes. It's probably one of the most dangerous sections in the whole trail. I got my tent and fell asleep, the thunderstorm went through, and then these the winds came up, and it turned out that the valley that I was facing to the south was shaped like a curl point, like freight trains coming up the mountain. And sometimes they'd go on the left of me or the right of me, and then every once in a while one would hit me directly, and it felt like I was in a body bag, and my tent was just collapsing like an accordion. My brother said, Were you hanging on to the rods? And I said, Heck no. I was pushing down with my hands and my feet on the stakes as hard as I could, because if they came out of the ground, I'm gone. It would have and I had a long discussion with the big guy, basically saying, Okay, if I'm gonna die here tonight, then I will accept that because that's your will for me, apparently. I know it was your will for me to get sober. I did that, but this one I'm not I don't have any control over this one. So I guess it's up to you, big guy. And if I'm gone, I'm gone. I'll accept that, but man, I'd really rather not. You know, I could help a lot more men if you could just keep me alive. And I don't know, it was terrifying. It's the most terrifying thing I've ever been through, other than when people were shooting at me. That's a whole different world. But most times those things don't last long, although one did lasted three days, but anyway, this was almost in some ways more terrifying. And it wasn't until it started to get light that it stopped. And I got out of my tent and I couldn't believe I was still alive. And I turned my phone on because I had two guys that I was working with that would call me every morning, even while I was hiking the trail, to let me know that they weren't drinking, that they were okay. And one of them said to me, Are you okay? And I would never tell them about what I was, you know. I don't want them worrying about me, I want them taking care of them their own selves and doing the program. And I said, Yeah, and he said, Well, I've been watching the weather, it was really, really bad there, and there was some tornadoes. I said, Well, I didn't see any tornadoes, but there was high winds, yeah. It was kind of scary, but I don't think it was another experience where I knew I had a higher power. There's no way I should have survived that.

Storms, Snakes, And Naked Day

SPEAKER_01 40:30

And then we had, you know, I had a couple playtimes with uh reptiles and stuff like that. A lot of the hikers on the Appalachian Trail, most of them are well, they're all younger than we were. I mean, we were actually was nice because we were recognized as quirks of the old type. Like people would come see us and they go, How did you get here? Like, how did you walk up from the parking lot? No, we've been walking since Springer Mountain. Really? You know, that kind of thing. But a lot of most of the young ones, especially, would be in the morning, they would have their earbuds in, so they're not they can't hear anything. They're certainly not gonna hear rattlesnake rattle, right? And a lot of them had, you know, big eyes. And I don't know why people would hike the trail that way, but quite a few of them did. So anytime I came across the reptile that of the poisonous type, I would try to make sure they got off the trail. And snakes and bears, a lot of most of the time, they're just gonna go, right? But I had a rattlesnake, big sucker, he's probably four or five feet long, that's a big one. And he coiled on me, and I'm trying to poke him with my hiking stick to get him off to go off the trail. Because I know there's gonna be other hikers coming along. And he's not, he's I we're staring at each other, he's not moving, and then I finally look down, I see by my foot there's a chipmunk, it's got two spots of blood on it where it bit it. And then my brain goes, Oh, that's his meal. So I'm locked in with this snake, eyeball, you know, and I squatted down, picked the chipmunk up, shook it, and it's like, here it is. I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure you get it, right? And then I swung and I threw that chipmunk as hard as I could right over the snake's head and into the forest. Elias, I damn near voided myself. That snake whirled and went after that chipmunk. I swear faster than you can shoot an arrow out of a bow. I had no idea that he could move that fast. If that rattler decided to bite me, I there's nothing I could have done to stop it. He would have had me for sure. So, you know, that's another spiritual something was looking out for me for sure. But and that was you know, there was quite a few. I probably got four or five rattlers off the trail at different points, uh, cotton mouse, copper hoods. We go through a lot of swamps, trail goes through a lot of swamps. But I can tell you stories all day long. I'll tell you a real funny one if you want, real quick.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Oh, yeah. Oh, you know, yeah, no, tell you, tell us a funny one because no, you actually answered a lot of my questions right, so just go on ahead. Got more time than I thought.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Okay. So I'm hiking up Hogback Mountain in Virginia. It was, I think it was June 18th, 2018. And I always leave early, so I'm usually by myself the first part of the morning. But I hear other hikers coming up behind me. And so I'm about halfway up Hogback Mountain, and I pull over, and there's a guy I know, his name is Gro his trail name is Growler. He's got a woman with him, her name is Coorsline. And there was another woman with him that day. And so we had run into each other. Growler was like Paul Bunyan with a beard. I mean, this guy, he's probably in late 20s, early 30s, built solid. I mean, he's a great big mountain man. I mean, he looked like he could pick a tree up and throw it anytime he wanted to. One of those guys. I really liked him a lot. And and he was kind, you know, he was proud of me and Ron and stuff. We'd seen him quite a bit. So I turn around, and here's Growler coming up the trail, and these two ladies, and they have no clothes on. They are buck naked. And Growler looks at me, and I look at him, and he goes, Renboat, you didn't get the memo. Today is naked day on the Appalachian Trail. I said, Oh my God. Well, I'm gonna do y'all a favor. I'm gonna keep my clothes on. I can't imagine walking around the can you imagine walking around in the forest in the mountains naked with, you know, you got all kinds of critters, right? You got lice, you got all kinds every insect you can name, snakes, I mean it's crazy, right? So I pull over, let them go, and then I pull them up to follow them. And now Gruler's not in the front anymore. He's in the back. So and the women are in the front, so I can't even see them, right? And so I'm following Gruler up the mountain, and he's got the hairiest backside I've ever seen on a man in my whole life, and I just pull over. So I I pulled over and waited until they got out of sight. And of course, they were faster than me anyway. So but when I got up the top, I met them, I don't know, an hour or so later, they had their clothes back on. So if they tell you it's naked day on the Appalachian Trail, you might want to just take a pass on that one. But I mean, it's just funny stuff that happened.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

So for those who want a free show, attend that police revolution during the naked day. That's the lesson, right? Yeah. I mean, you know, hey, but if you are skirmish, I am not being naked on freaking for it. I'll tell you that right now. So you have to be on great drugs. I have to be on great drugs for me just to be, just to even do that. I have to be the best LSD, copium, whatever, just for me to go crazy and not even pay attention, I'd probably be dead. Because you know that snake, the one that you just told me about, I'm sure I think that snake would have killed you if he wasn't um intuitively intelligent, put two and two together. Oh, he's after that that chimp they just bit. That was his meal. If you were just going I don't know, doing a face-off, if you will, yeah, it would have been a totally different outcome. And sadly, this conversation would have never happened, probably. And I just say probably, or maybe there was another way, but we didn't want to find out. So that's a good thing you was you was you you was wise just to say, oh, you was at that chimpy, that meal right there. So yeah, and then of course that cleared the trail, which you know that was very selfless of you. You could have just, I don't know, been squirbish, just walked the other way, uh, let the other people figure it out, and that stink would have probably had more than one meal for sure. Or or casualties, which you know, thank goodness you did your part right there. That's what I'm gonna say. I don't want to do I don't want to dismiss that as well. And so yeah, so it's naked days. People, if you look, if you feel as free as a bird, that's on you. Don't expect me to do that. But if you're but if you're not confident, then you know you do you. Just be mindful of others. That's all I'm gonna say, I guess. So they some is probably thinking, who is this guy saying? This guy on the mic. I'm as lazy as I can be. Just don't include me in that because I'm not gonna participate in that naked day stuff. If I can't stand a couple of bugs or even people being near me sometimes, then yeah, I'm not doing that. If anything, I wear extra armor or something, or have a zap suit, something crazy, or hazmat suit, whatever the heck. I have more clothing on, not less people. More clothing on, all right? And I could imagine, man, I don't want to describe that guy's back. Probably have like a walking through probably two bushes or three, depending on what the DNA allows, and that hair and that hair buildup. Probably walking bushes. Oh goodness, but uh man, nah. I mean you learn you learn some interesting things, people. That's why that's that's why it's good to talk to different people, it expands your horizons instead of just I don't know, stick to your people and just stick to what you know, stick to your same, whatever. It gets for me, it gets boring after a while, personally. I'm like a big kid, I'm always pretty curious. If a person is interesting and weird and quirky, I'm more interested in the normal stereotypes. I know you're already boring. Wait, I would have been if me you was doing a track, I definitely went up to say, Oh, how do you do it? How the heck? I'll be so curious. Is that what I mean? I I would have said God is definitely with you because if you want to use science and logic, this is not supposed to be achievable. Throw God out of the picture, just use pure science logic, no, but you know, but that's that but that's a that that's an amazing thing you really did. And you know, I people just gotta just give respects to Rand or to the men and get his book, you know. That's another form of respect. Get that, get to the you know, the pictures, not in I'm sure it has words, but also has a lot of pictures as well. So if you're a visual person, you'll appreciate that. You know, and that's all I'm gonna say about that. Anything else you want to add before I wrap this up?

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Well, you were talking about maybe doing a like a day hike type of thing, and I will recommend one. If

A Loving God And Listener Requests

SPEAKER_01 49:56

you go to Bear Mountain on the other side of from New York City of the Hudson River, you know where the Hudson River Bridge is. When you cross that bridge, you are in Bear Mountain, it's New Jersey National Park, I believe it is, or might be state park. But Bear Mountain has been the hike, is they they made steps basically on the riverside. So you can hike up Bear Mountain, you can see the Hudson River, you can see the Hudson Bridge. It's just an amazing, and that'd be a fun thing to do. You're gonna run into a lot of hikers. Most of the trail doesn't look anything like that, but that would be a great one for you to do, and you'd have a lot of fun. And I really do. You've got a great podcast. I listened to your other stuff. You you're putting me on here. I'm kind of a one-off for what you're used to, but I think my spiritual journey will can help a lot of people. You know, my I ended up in a sp in a place where my heart, my sponsor said, Ram, what kind of a god are you praying to? And I said, I don't know. And he said, How about a loving God? My God became a loving God, and then I didn't have to worry about all the dumb rules, not dumb, but all the rules and things. And then for me, if it had another quality, it was mercy, right? And then my God ended up being the creator of the universe, so that's 15 billion years of knowledge, wisdom, and experience that I don't have. I have 80 years right now. That's nothing. So it made it a lot easier for me to turn my difficulties over to that God, and then I can go about my life and have joy and serenity and not be, I'm no longer addicted, and I can help other people. You know, I can't teach my dog geometry. I had a really smart dog. That dog, I would get his bull, and he would stand there and look or sit there and look at me, and I'd go over. This happened every day. And I would turn the water, the faucet on, right? And the water would come out, and he would look at me and he go, I could just see his eyebrows be going like this. How does he do that? Right? I can't, I could get a whiteboard and try to teach my dog geometry all day long. And he would sit there, and he was a nice dog. He would just sit there and his eyebrows would be flipping around, and I'm not teaching him nothing, right? Well, that's the same way my I am to the God that loves me, right? I love my dog, my dog loves me, I love my higher power, he loves me. I have faith and trust in him, even though I don't understand anything, relatively speaking, right? I don't know who built the pyramids, you know. Apparently there's columns underneath them, six of them holding them up, go down two miles. I mean, we don't know anything, right? We everything that we think we know in 100 years we'll know we were totally wrong, just like they were wrong about bloodletting when they killed George Washington, right? Like letting all so I don't know. If you're struggling spiritually, I'm hoping that my message about spirituality and what I went through will help you get to a place where you can believe in something greater than yourself. If I don't believe in a higher power, then that means I think I'm God and I'm not God. That's for sure. So that's my message.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

That's a very good one for sure. And another thing I just want to add, so she for some of you, do and you said you allude to this, you know, such can be your motive, you know, do it for the others, serve others, use you know other people as a good reason as well. I don't recommend as number one, but I would say is your motivation, can you do things for others? You and your brother, you had your family, the deceased, and a living. That was that was your fuel, and you know, the you know, and I am tired of oh screw the we is all about me. Well, and this is why in now I'm gonna get a little political and break my problem. This is why, in general, America's falling apart. You could name who's doing more of me and screw the we, the people. It's all about me, myself, and I. And yeah, even though America is individualistic in some ways, but there was a time where we was able to have a fine balance between individualism and communism. You know, not in a communist kind of sense. I don't know how somebody liked to twist it. You know, you just have a community. People help each other to raise a child, kind of thing. No, good community. That's another thing I would like to add. And you know, yeah, no, God is really great. Um, I don't care what kind of God you believe in, Buddha, Krishna, Vishnu, God, Allah, whatever the heck you believe in, or the green alien, whatever the heck, all right, just yeah, just have a higher power. I recommend it, you know, and it's true. If you don't believe in God, you think you're a God. And trust me, you will fail epically if you try to be God. And I did. So, and I did too. And you know, when I thought I was an O It All, oh, I was humbled. I was humbled to a point I wanted to punch that person. Normally I'm not a violent person, but I just really wanted to yeah, but we are trust me. I was gonna say this. Just yeah, just believe in a higher power and don't just think of me me and screw me we. Nope. It takes a society to form this great country. It's the people that make this country great, not the politicians or whatever craziness you believe in, or whatever social media and TV, television media tells you as well. It's the people, regardless of what the media tells you. That's what I'm gonna say. And you know what? And I'll try the trail. I'm gonna definitely do that Bear Mountain one at some point. And it could probably be soon, or it could probably be next year. I don't know. I'm gonna figure that out, but try a trail. Nobody as crazy as him. I'll tell you that. But unless you're Daredevil, that's up to you. Like I said, I'll stay away. Just don't drag me with you. That's why I asked. Just don't drag me with you. I will say you are insane, and I'm gonna I'm gonna I won't be surprised. I'll find your news, or this guy is dead because of ABC. I said, Ah, I think good, something go. I'm sorry, you did. I'll pray for you. Hopefully, make it to heaven. But um, all right, enough yammering. Let's wrap this up. Uh get his book, okay? Get his book. I don't want to forget that because he's not just, you know, he's not here just to ramble. He has a great story, especially a story of trial, indefinite trial era, and I would say borderline insanity, if you will. You know, not the PTSD part, but not the army part. I'm talking just the trail part because I mean army army that takes bravery um on that one. You know, that's you know, and some people may call it crazy. I disagree. I would say it's a service to your country, but the apple that trail, I will say that's for very good saying, and I'm sure he has a lot more stories, but get the book if you're that curious, okay? Just get the book from there. I'm sure he probably wrestled a bear, you know. I'm just probably making stuff up from there. You know, I'm sure lightning was meant, but barely dodged him. Listen, I I'm sure he's done a lot more. And you know, just get the book if you're curious from there. He gave you some great samples already. Come on, and he gives you the most juiciest part of filet mignon. Now pay for another filet mignon. He ready to give you a free sample of it, the best part of it. Now go get it. Just go get it, all right? Don't be cheating. This is why when I when I saw this, I said, Yeah, I gotta book this guy. This is an amazing story. So again, just get his book. And he also, you know, and he also he's also in the podcast as well, you know. He's in office round table, he's in spiritual path, you know, spiritual passage. There, there is that as well. And yeah, go for it. He's he's right there. I'll link all of that description so you can check it out, okay? Give him some support, okay? Don't be cheap. That's what I'm gonna say. So, with that, people I hope you enjoyed this podcast. If you give it a five star, give a good reason why it is a five-star. Don't just give me a five-star. Trust me, I have an ego. I'm just gonna think I'm great. And if it's a one-star or no reason, I will hate you just as much because you're not giving me a reason. Um, but if you give me lower than five star, give me at least one specific reason I can improve this. That I would appreciate. I don't want empty compliments or insults. That doesn't help me. Feedback. That's what really helps me. I'm a grown person, I'm a grown man. I could take criticism, especially if it's specific, and I could come up with an action to address it. Like lighting, one of them say I had poor lighting, address that. Poor audio, one of them complain about that. I just that so feel free to be vocal. Use your first amendment properly, people. Instead of just saying, I don't know, screw your mother, let her drop dead, or or you're the next coming Jesus. I don't want to hear either of those two. They're both they're they're both crazy for different reasons, okay? Um alrighty then, that's it from there, and just leave it at Apple Podcasts a review, and um and give some feedback in the YouTube comments, and this eventually goes rumble as well. So, but this is a real final part now. So, whenever you listen to